BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Do the deniers see it but pretend they don't ? I don't get it.

This is the widespread mindset: mobile.twitter.com/QoyZhavvorsi/status/1453094864573304836

We've been re-educated for so long now that having "genital preferences" (ie. being sexually attracted based on sex) is transphobic. They going to deny all that discourse that's been happening over the last few years?

Owen dismissed someone to their face (well on Twitter). Everything she said is true. He is truly vile and misogynistic. mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1354079225238728709

Get over your "Genital hangups" . I remember that tweet. Gosh, everyone should read the screenshots in this thread... mobile.twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1453141517003075589
mobile.twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1453141532228431878
mobile.twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1453141544123256837
mobile.twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1453141552696631300
The threats of violence if we don't comply are noted too.
Wow. mobile.twitter.com/NastySmurfette/status/1453141561315844096

Oh, straight people too, if a man doesn't want to be with a transwoman = transphobe mobile.twitter.com/EuanRL/status/1445168249952481280

@littlbrowndog

Finn. Ffs

Keep it in the family is reminiscent of abusive raped fathers/father figures also

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Do we so expect trans people to examine how societal prejudices have shaped their identities? Isn't that GC territory? Would it mean that this thorny issue could all be sorted out by examining the societal preasures rather than bowing to them? Or is the idea that sexual attraction is shaped by societal prejudice but identity is not? Given the previous call for extensive robust evidence, can we have have some to support that position then?

Identities are not sexual orientation.

Completely disingenuous false equivalency.

It's vanished off twitter trending in any way and doesn't seem to be any mention in newspapers that I can see.

I do fear for the journalist who wrote the piece, she's had to close down her twitter

Not read the full thread yet but it seems to me a lot of this is down to the Q and the + as well as a sex positive porn culture that is so prevalent today especially it seems in those circles. When a straight woman can claim she is queer then its not a stretch to say a lesbian should be open to trying heterosexual sex.

Its all entirely fucked up and the people claiming this never happens and that those people are liars while talking about #MeToo and believe women out of the other side of their mouths are just despicable.

I suppose another colonisation aspect of this is those heterosexual women who claim they are 'queer', to make themselves seem more interesting or marginalised or whatever, and then berate lesbians for not sleeping with men.

'Genital preferences' is part and parcel of that thinking that we just can't tell who is a man or a woman without a genital inspection. How did we manage?

When a straight woman can claim she is queer then its not a stretch to say a lesbian should be open to trying heterosexual sex.

It's probably true at this point that the majority of women in "queer" communities sometimes have sex with men, right?

I can imagine actual lesbians would be a minority.

Anyone remember the Guardian date they set up where they had a lesbian and a transwoman but didn't tell the lesbian who understandably felt very had. And got a pile on when she rejected the TW?

It's vanished off twitter trending in any way and doesn't seem to be any mention in newspapers that I can see.

It's in the Mail. Someone posted a link earlier.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10132311/Some-lesbians-feel-pressured-sex-trans-women-fears-branded-transphobic.html

I do fear for the journalist who wrote the piece, she's had to close down her twitter

Strange how that only happens to women. Stephen Nolan wasn't hounded off twitter, was he? They certainly know what sex people are when they're looking for a witch to burn.

The journalist’s Twitter wasn’t there by the time I posted this thread yesterday so perhaps she preemptively disabled it. She clearly knows the score when it comes to the reaction to this kind of article.

@HeadPain

Those tweets are horrifying to read and it is just make entitlement.

So it’s ok for gay men to only want penis but lesbians are not allowed to want a vagina? Lesbians aren’t allowed tk want a biological woman. It’s horrifying.

I’m married to a man and any penis that is not my husbands repulses me! What are these people talking about? I couldn’t just “deal with” a random penis just for the feelings of some creepy perverted man who thinks I owe him sex.

These people are rape apologists and are gaslighting women to have no boundaries so men who wear dresses can have their sexual desires met.

Male entitlement *

*Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Do we so expect trans people to examine how societal prejudices have shaped their identities? Isn't that GC territory? Would it mean that this thorny issue could all be sorted out by examining the societal preasures rather than bowing to them? Or is the idea that sexual attraction is shaped by societal prejudice but identity is not? Given the previous call for extensive robust evidence, can we have have some to support that position then?

Identities are not sexual orientation.

Completely disingenuous false equivalency.*

Not really. There is no evidence to suggest that identities are any less shaped by societal prejudice than sexual orientation. As ever, TRA refuse to take their own advice. If they believe sexual orientation is shaped by social prejudice (I don't btw) then they need to also consider whether gender identity is. Or they need to provide evidence that this is a false equivalency. Basically they need to stop telling others to look at their own assumptions which refusing to do so themselves.

No lesbians should be questioned if they say they are same sex attracted. That's literally the definition of being a lesbian.

No-one is under any obligation to consider someone as a sexual partner. Surely it's the other way round, only people who have something special about them in your opinion get considered.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

*Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Do we so expect trans people to examine how societal prejudices have shaped their identities? Isn't that GC territory? Would it mean that this thorny issue could all be sorted out by examining the societal preasures rather than bowing to them? Or is the idea that sexual attraction is shaped by societal prejudice but identity is not? Given the previous call for extensive robust evidence, can we have have some to support that position then?

Identities are not sexual orientation.

Completely disingenuous false equivalency.*

Not really. There is no evidence to suggest that identities are any less shaped by societal prejudice than sexual orientation. As ever, TRA refuse to take their own advice. If they believe sexual orientation is shaped by social prejudice (I don't btw) then they need to also consider whether gender identity is. Or they need to provide evidence that this is a false equivalency. Basically they need to stop telling others to look at their own assumptions which refusing to do so themselves.

Gender identities always involve some variations on sex role stereotypes. That’s an obvious sign it’s related to socialisation and a need to inhabit some of those stereotypes to identify as the opposite gender, or the need to identify as the opposite gender to inhabit some of those stereotypes. So that’s nothing to do with being inherent.

Being a lesbian is same sex attracted. That’s a very clear definition. All lesbians are only attracted to women. There are no lesbians who are sometimes into men, or somewhat into men.

The transgender umbrella on the other hand is very vague. Anyone who feels like a woman on Tuesdays and Fridays is included along with bearded ‘women’ who make no transition along with men who go through therapy and hormone treatment and surgeries. It’s not at all clear what an inherent gender identity might be, if it could be argued to be inherent, because it’s such a huge spectrum. Which is entirely different.

Gender critical argument would be for men who feel this way to do whatever they feel is right for them, but to recognise that it doesn’t make them a biological woman and that they don’t have the same need for women’s spaces and services as women do. The only prejudice expected to be evaluated is why they need to violate women’s boundaries rather than expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a man. It causes no harm for men to look at expanding manhood to include men who prefer stereotypical feminine clothing etc, it does lesbians huge psychologically damage to expect them to evaluate why they don’t want a dick in them.

So yes, it’s a false equivalency. Arguing otherwise sounds very raspy.

*rapey

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

The journalist’s Twitter wasn’t there by the time I posted this thread yesterday so perhaps she preemptively disabled it. She clearly knows the score when it comes to the reaction to this kind of article.

It's just awful isn't it?

@WarriorN

Anyone remember the Guardian date they set up where they had a lesbian and a transwoman but didn't tell the lesbian who understandably felt very had. And got a pile on when she rejected the TW?

I do remember. IIRC, the young lesbian had to make it clear that although she wasn't romantically interested in the male as an individual, she wasn't some horrible terf bigot, etc., etc.

Just the other day I was thinking it would be interesting, if transwomen really are women, if whichever production company makes those Married At First Sight shows paired up a heterosexual man with a transwoman. Would they dare to do it? Would it even cross their minds? Would the groom be a hateful, irredeemable bigot if he didn't go through with it?

@BloodinGutters

"Gender identities always involve some variations on sex role stereotypes. That’s an obvious sign it’s related to socialisation and a need to inhabit some of those stereotypes to identify as the opposite gender, or the need to identify as the opposite gender to inhabit some of those stereotypes. So that’s nothing to do with being inherent.

Being a lesbian is same sex attracted. That’s a very clear definition. All lesbians are only attracted to women. There are no lesbians who are sometimes into men, or somewhat into men.

The transgender umbrella on the other hand is very vague. Anyone who feels like a woman on Tuesdays and Fridays is included along with bearded ‘women’ who make no transition along with men who go through therapy and hormone treatment and surgeries. It’s not at all clear what an inherent gender identity might be, if it could be argued to be inherent, because it’s such a huge spectrum. Which is entirely different.

Gender critical argument would be for men who feel this way to do whatever they feel is right for them, but to recognise that it doesn’t make them a biological woman and that they don’t have the same need for women’s spaces and services as women do. The only prejudice expected to be evaluated is why they need to violate women’s boundaries rather than expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a man. It causes no harm for men to look at expanding manhood to include men who prefer stereotypical feminine clothing etc, it does lesbians huge psychologically damage to expect them to evaluate why they don’t want a dick in them.

So yes, it’s a false equivalency. Arguing otherwise sounds very raspy."

I don't quite know why you're being so rude when we actually agree? My point was that it's arrogant and silly to suggest that lesbianism is a result of societal prejudices but gender ideology isn't. I think gender ideology is (to any sensible person) clearly much more about societal prejudice. I'm suggesting that if gender ideologists genuinely think that being a lesbian is somehow more 'caused' by societal prejudice than thinking there is such a think as inherent womaneess, they provide some evidence for that idea given that everything they say in this piece is built on that ropey foundation. Which part of this are you actually disagreeing with?

We've been re-educated for so long now that having "genital preferences" (ie. being sexually attracted based on sex) is transphobic. They going to deny all that discourse that's been happening over the last few years?

Very much this. How can they pretend that lesbians aren't being pressured into sex with trans women when for several years the trans women they have been hanging out with on social media have been talking about getting lesbians to have sex with them? And yammering on about "genital preferences" being "transphobic"?

EsmaCannonball it's notable that they didn't do it again though, so much be aware that it crosses a line.

First dates put a TW with a woman who said they were attracted to anyone, and didn't call herself bi. TW was honest from pretty much the outset, which is key.

There was a discussion I know that Watson/sinead was involved in last night where happy relationships between Tw and women including lesbians were described, the key being that the transwomen were completely honest from the outset.

Which is how it should be.

The vast majority on Twitter are missing the key points around coercion, which they're now all complicit in, gaslighting and rape.

It wouldn't be acceptable in heterosexual relationships. All these so called trans allies complaining about yen piece are being complicit in coercive abuse, homophobic and heteronormative.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Then I think I’ve misread, because it sounded like you were arguing in favour of stonewalls statement. So apologies if that’s the case.

But I don’t think it’s rude to argue that a gc view that tw expand the bandwidth of manhood is entirely different from any one being expected to evaluate how their social prejudice effects their orientation.

But I am sorry I misread @whatiswrongwithmyknee

It also answers the race question - is it racist to not fancy a certain ethnicity for example.

For me, there is no "race question" and I get cross when people use this as a false equivalency.

There is a difference between "I think that person is attractive" and "I am attracted to that person". No one should be obliged to someone they are not attracted to, whatever the reason. If they are obliged, that is coercion.

‘I do fear for the journalist who wrote the piece, she's had to close down her Twitter’

It’s a poor piece of journalism, maybe that’s whe she’s gone off SM for a while. That’s a big art like to write, and a lot to claim of the back of hearsay and a really dodgy ‘poll’.