BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Yeah like, it's a bit of an art to like, read a longer bbc website article, and like, actually understand it.

It’s a poor piece of journalism, maybe that’s whe she’s gone off SM for a while. That’s a big art like to write, and a lot to claim of the back of hearsay and a really dodgy ‘poll’.

So first hand accounts from women who have been subject to coercion and rape no longer count and should be ignored. Is that what you are saying?
How fast we have moved from believing peoples lived experience and taking women seriously when they talk about sexual violence.

Conversely if a negative feature becomes salient and used as a benchmark for considering future interactions.

So that is a difficulty for an already marginalised, vulnerable group which many people in the general public don't actually have extensive interactions with to from their own opinions.

You are saying that lesbians should not have their stories told about men coercing them into sex/relationships because the men are in "a marginalised group".

I think you have bought into the single story of men who say they are women being marginalised, when in fact they do have agency, they are responsible for their own actions and they shouldn't be telling women they are transphobic if those women only want relationships with women.

I watched that video about the danger of single stories, it's very powerful.

You seem to think that the message was that we should not tell any negative stories about groups of people for fear of people interpreting it as the only story.

You need to think a little harder, the whole point was that there is always more than one story.

And the person who wrote the BBC article was mindful of that, which is probably why they had men (who call themselves women) commenting in the article.

@logsonlogsoff

‘I do fear for the journalist who wrote the piece, she's had to close down her Twitter’

It’s a poor piece of journalism, maybe that’s whe she’s gone off SM for a while. That’s a big art like to write, and a lot to claim of the back of hearsay and a really dodgy ‘poll’.

You keep saying poll.

There was not a poll. A woman was interviewed, who had sent out a questionnaire. I know this is the party line now, but it just makes you look silly to anyone who reads the article.

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1453112843709161482?t=rriCt8YiNuiKYlq3ihJfVw&s=19

If it upsets you so much, re-read the article and pretend no mention is made of that questionnaire, to which multiple women replied explaining they had experienced homophobic pressure.

If this was an article about someone researching violence against transgender people, would you have such a problem with an identical questionnaire using the same methodology?

This is the bit you have a problem with. It is really so much of a problem?

Angela created a questionnaire for lesbians and distributed it via social media, thenpublished the results.

She said that of the 80 women who did respond, 56% reported being pressured or coerced to accept a trans woman as a sexual partner.

While acknowledging the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian community, she believes it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".

As well as experiencing pressure to go on dates or engage in sexual activity with trans women, some of the respondents reported being successfully persuaded to do so.

"I thought I would be called a transphobe or that it would be wrong of me to turn down a trans woman who wanted to exchange nude pictures," one wrote. "Young women feel pressured to sleep with trans women 'to prove I am not a terf'."

One woman reported being targeted in an online group. "I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me," she wrote.

You can view the results here: www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

It’s a poor piece of journalism, maybe that’s whe she’s gone off SM for a while.

It’s a good, well-researched and timely piece of journalism. I expect it’s the probability of threats of violence, rape and death that have kept her off Twitter.

Commendation sent to BBC. I could get used to this.

Let's try a thought experiment.

Angela A hypothetical trans activist created a questionnaire for transgender people and distributed it via social media, then published the results.

She said that of the 80 lesbians transgender people who did respond, 56% reported being a victim of violence.

While acknowledging the sample may not be representative of the wider lesbian transgender community, she believes it was important to capture their "points of view and stories".

Would anyone have a problem with the BBC publishing that? I certainly wouldn't.

I agree @borntobequiet and sadly they'll never make misogyny a hate crime as threats of rape / death for a woman daring to speak up for herself / others are far too common that the crime stats would go through the roof.

The article doesn't even need the survery.

The quote from NK says all you need to know.

Take it up witg SW not the BBc

@TheWeeDonkey

Not read the full thread yet but it seems to me a lot of this is down to the Q and the + as well as a sex positive porn culture that is so prevalent today especially it seems in those circles. When a straight woman can claim she is queer then its not a stretch to say a lesbian should be open to trying heterosexual sex.

Its all entirely fucked up and the people claiming this never happens and that those people are liars while talking about #MeToo and believe women out of the other side of their mouths are just despicable.

Why go into denial?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism

In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.

The motivations and causes of denialism include religion, self-interest (economic, political, or financial), and defence mechanisms meant to protect the psyche of the denialist against mentally disturbing facts and ideas, often called cognitive dissonance in psychology terms.

Focusing on the rhetorical tactics through which denialism is achieved in language, in Alex Gillespie (2020) of the London School of Economics has reviewed the linguistic and practical defensive tactics for denying disruptive information. These tactics are conceptualized in terms of three layers of defence:

Avoiding – The first line of defence against disruptive information is to avoid it.

Delegitimizing – The second line of defence is to attack the messenger, by undermining the credibility of the source.

Limiting – The final line of defence, if disruptive information cannot be avoided or delegitimized, is to rationalize and limit the impact of the disruptive ideas

In 2009 author Michael Specter defined group denialism as "when an entire segment of society, often struggling with the trauma of change, turns away from reality in favor of a more comfortable lie".

Why would lesbians in an environment which was once a safe safe but now one where they are being pressured and coercised by social expulsion from a cult like group where they don't have power compared to men, go into denial?

I honestly don't think it difficult to work out, that its easier to lie to yourself to 'protect' yourself psychologically.

[quote BloodinGutters]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Then I think I’ve misread, because it sounded like you were arguing in favour of stonewalls statement. So apologies if that’s the case.

But I don’t think it’s rude to argue that a gc view that tw expand the bandwidth of manhood is entirely different from any one being expected to evaluate how their social prejudice effects their orientation.[/quote]
Very much arguing against their position. I didn't like being called raspy. Absolutely agree that tw need to expand their bandwidth of manhood. Absolutely agree that the ones who need to examine the impact of societal prejudice are not lesbians. We definitely agree.

sadly they'll never make misogyny a hate crime as threats of rape / death for a woman daring to speak up for herself / others are far too common that the crime stats would go through the roof.

They can't make misogyny a hate crime as most people (including many women) can't see it - it's just our normal.

It's too intangible to be able to legislate for as only women see and feel it, and because of the same misogyny, no/one hears them.

@Berthatydfil

One of the things that opened my eyes to this was reading about the Cotton Ceiling and seeing a comment saying (not an exact quote) that lesbians needed help to be able to cope with a penis in sex and thinking that needing to cope and an enjoyable sexual encounter did not sit well together and it sounded to me a lot like rape.

Quite. ‘Twas ever thus.

“Lie back and think of England your trans sisters.”

Haven't read the whole thread, it's a fast moving one understandably, but sharing this as it's good to see further coverage.

There's a response to the criticisms from the bbc in the DM piece:

In response to criticism about their coverage, a BBC spokesperson said: 'The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.
'It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.
'It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions.
'The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.'

I agree @borntobequiet and sadly they'll never make misogyny a hate crime as threats of rape / death for a woman daring to speak up for herself / others are far too common that the crime stats would go through the roof.

Don’t forget giving rape and death threats is still a crime and women should report them. Joanna Cherry and Louise Minchin have recently had cases where men were charged after making such threats.

It's not a complex subject at all. It's very simple. Lesbians are being coerced into having sex with men.

These people are rape apologists and are gaslighting women to have no boundaries so men who wear dresses can have their sexual desires met.

Exactly. And it's obvious.

And that makes all the denial look risible. It's a panicked response because of the frankly overwhelming receipts to the contrary.

Transwomen have been telling women everywhere they're wrong to be a lesbian, and other men just like to join in for the woman bashing.

And of course, if TRAs are going to say it's not true, there a whole bunch of other people who will do even more surveys and questionnaires. The likes of Nolan have now got the bit between their teeth.

Plus Stonewall need to answer the question is a sexual orientation prejudice? And let's see what happens at pride, when lesbians being lesbian and not including transwomen in their dating pool get thrown out.

The spotlight is on, and it's bloody blinding.

@Whatwouldscullydo

The article doesn't even need the survery.

The quote from NK says all you need to know.

Take it up witg SW not the BBc

THIS!

The survey is kind of irrelevant in this particular article. This article has a quote from the CEO of Stonewall, the biggest charity in the UK for same sex attracted people, saying that if lesbians exclude people of the opposite sex to them (in this case transwomen) then that is prejudiced and needs to be examined as to why you feel that way. Nancy Kelley is saying that if lesbians want to only date people of the same sex as themselves, and exclude anyone of the opposite sex, this is prejudice.

No wonder everyone is concentrating on the survey!!!

@ErrolTheDragon

There's a response to the criticisms from the bbc in the DM piece:

In response to criticism about their coverage, a BBC spokesperson said: 'The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.
'It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.
'It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions.
'The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.'

It's clear in the article that interviews were requested from those who might disagree with the contents of the article:

Stonewall is the largest LGBT organisation in the UK and Europe. I asked the charity about these issues but it was unable to provide anyone for interview.

I asked Veronica Ivy if she would speak to me but she did not want to.

I contacted several other high profile trans women who have either written or spoken about sex and relationships. None of them wanted to speak to me but my editors and I felt it was important to reflect some of their views in this piece.

Presumably this is all part of the 'no debate' strategy - trying to prevent publication by making it impossible to present the 'other side'.

But they presented it anyway by using the statement from Nancy Kelley, some of Veronica Ivy's tweets, some (now deleted) youtube videos by Riley J Dennis and links to Roz Kaveney's articles about the cotton ceiling.

If the no debaters want to present their arguments in a different way to these sources, they need to start agreeing to be interviewed.

@EishetChayil

It's not a complex subject at all. It's very simple. Lesbians are being coerced into having sex with men.

This ^^

And it’s supported by stonewall

Still haven’t got to the end of the thread. But just wanted to say. This is amazing. Thank you. I’ve given a few women a heads up about the article so that more people can see it….

@EsmaCannonball I think one of those American Bachelor reality shows did a few years back - that have one guy and around twelve women vying to be the chosen one.

Not quite the same as a one on one date scenario and I have a feeling he probably was aware as these shows are all very staged.

Was it The Guardian who published the exposé of Noel Clarke's sexual harassment of women, based on several anonymous interviews? I don't recall Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar, et al, claiming that wasn't rigorous enough evidence or purely anecdotal. As with grooming gangs, Loudoun County schools or the IRA, women are expected to stay quiet about rape and abuse because the reputations of certain groups of men are seen as more important. It's the totalitarian tactic of putting ideology before people.

I think it's extremely simple, BBC.

The question before society is should a female human be required to provide her body to validate a male human's sense of self?

Should she be required to do this physically by her presence, when she is partially undressed in a toilet or changing room? When she needs a breast exam or a smear? When she is vulnerable on a hospital ward or in a prison shower?

How about actively and sexually?

Against her sexual orientation? Under pressure to conform to the male person's perceived greater need? How about against her consent?

Where are the lines of what is acceptable to require of one sex to benefit another? What does this say about equality, and about how 'real' and 'binary' sex is?

These are not pretty things to be asking ourselves in 2021, but they do have to be faced up to. They will not disappear if we just don't let anyone say them out loud. And oddly enough the losers will all fit neatly into one sex class, and no one will struggle to identify them.