BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

@MonsignorMirth

Just to highlight here in case anyone didn't see:

"There are rapey creeps in our community unfortunately. I jst don't think it's going to help us to address it"

In a nutshell.
"unfortunately" = oh dear what rotten luck, still can't do much about it eh?

that post lost the quote. It was Finn's twitter reply someone posted upthread.

Well it's hard to do anything about it when you're vilified for saying that you want a female only space - the only way to get some breathing space from male-bodied people is to leave the queer community completely.

As a homosexual lesbian (can't believe I have to make that distinction), you cannot get away from a transwoman if they take a shine to you in a romantic context, e.g. at a club - even when you know you're not attracted to them and never will be because they're male-bodied, you have zero power to say "actually, I'm gay" like you could with a man, and so you just have to smile awkwardly until you spot an opportunity to make your excuses and leave (night ruined, but that's the norm).

And before people say "just tell the truth", that's not possible as it's really scary in the queer community if you believe in biological sex - they treat you like you're an insane time-travelling alien. I'm not exaggerating. People literally can't understand biological sex in that community and are convinced it's been debunked.

Positive comment sent

And before people say "just tell the truth", that's not possible as it's really scary in the queer community if you believe in biological sex - they treat you like you're an insane time-travelling alien. I'm not exaggerating. People literally can't understand biological sex in that community and are convinced it's been debunked.

Closed communities can have some very disturbing restrictions that amount to profound constrictions on how people live and think: it's understandable how people end up obliged to believe a Sacred Science (biological sex has been debunked) that doesn't hold up outside that community.

And yet, when that community is your social support and part of your social identity, both choosing to leave it (which might be as minor an act as reading an article that you've been told that you don't need to read) or being ostracised from it - they are both a form of social death.

Beyond that, when those closed communities have influenced policy-making in a way where that social ostracism can pursue you into the workplace or have you labelled a bigot when you seek healthcare or should you find yourself in a legal setting (e.g., the ETBB) - that only amplifies the effect and the jeopardy.

The totalism of thought and the authoritarian infrastructure that are under construction are truly alarming.

twitter.com/ReliefBelief/status/1453092325203210241?s=20

Testimony from a lesbian about enjoying sex with a man.

positive comment made to BBC

@LonginesPrime

it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions

But I'm not transphobic - I'm absolutely fine with dating transmen and have dated several.

Sorry to say but according to Roz Kaveney in their comments on their 2012 Cotton Ceiling blog post that the BBC link to in the article, in RKs disgustingly warped way of thinking which uses gender to obliterate sexual orientation, this makes you a) bisexual and b) rapey while RK, who transitioned around 30, is the lesbian.

"Surely, if you are going to start flinging accusations of rape around they should apply at least equally to lesbians who sleep with trans men while not making it clear that they don't regard this as indicating their own bisexuality, but refuse to acknowledge their partner's truth.

rozk.livejournal.com/445853.html.

As a homosexual lesbian (can't believe I have to make that distinction), you cannot get away from a transwoman if they take a shine to you in a romantic context, e.g. at a club - even when you know you're not attracted to them and never will be because they're male-bodied, you have zero power to say "actually, I'm gay" like you could with a man, and so you just have to smile awkwardly until you spot an opportunity to make your excuses and leave (night ruined, but that's the norm).

I find your insight into this world fascinating. But I don’t think I’ve ever told a man I was gay to get rid of him. If anything it would probably just encourage them. Usually I tell them to fuck off.

When you say you can’t “tell the truth” - I understand the issue of biological sex - but why can’t you tell the truth you don’t fancy them?

I don’t know if you’ve only ever dated women but you have to be really, really tough to get rid of men. Much harsher than if you were getting rid of a woman. Don’t let them ruin your night.

Having said that she didn't believe the accounts of sexual abuse and rape from lesbians because in all her years she'd not heard of such a thing, Diva magazine's Linda Riley has now decided to block anyone who tells her otherwise and hide all contradictory tweets.

twitter.com/LindaRiley8/status/1453002753891086366/hidden

Seems she's really really determined not to hear of such a thing. Extraordinary.

Yes, exactly EmbarrassingHadrosaurus.

I lost my whole social circle, professional network and all my voluntary work when I left the LGBT community over the fact I believe in biological sex.

I guess the moral of the story is don't put all your eggs in one basket!

Positive comment sent, felt really weird praising the BBC!

@LonginesPrime

Yes, exactly EmbarrassingHadrosaurus.

I lost my whole social circle, professional network and all my voluntary work when I left the LGBT community over the fact I believe in biological sex.

I guess the moral of the story is don't put all your eggs in one basket!

it's more like, don't put all your eggs in a basket which is full of holes. Bloody tough on you.

When you say you can’t “tell the truth” - I understand the issue of biological sex - but why can’t you tell the truth you don’t fancy them?

Because people can be really pushy, just like the men are.

I used to enjoy going to gay spaces so I didn't have to deal with straight blokes, and they did once feel really relaxed, safe and accepting, but then the gay places became similar in terms of people's entitlement, pushiness and intolerance. I feel far less safe in gay places than anywhere else nowadays.

I do agree that I'm too soft though - it's just so difficult when you're dealing with male entitlement AND the fact that having boundaries is bigoted!

It is unbelievable to me that when I was growing up lesbians had to fight for the fact that their sexuality was innate, not a choice, and to have protections on that basis.

And yet here we are with Stonewall, supposed lesbian publications like Diva and prominent twitter accounts saying that same sex attraction is what - a learned response, something that can be unlearned, bigotry, a preference or a fetish?

They aren't going after straight men the same way because they know damn well the power dynamics in society mean it just wouldn't wash. And people are arguing whether enough women have faced abuse to justify mentioning it?

@EBearhug

But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

That may be true, but the way to consider it is by thinking and maybe discussing, not experimentally sleeping with people you're not attracted to, just to see if it changes your mind. It's okay to reach the conclusion that yes, my preferences have been shaped by a whole pile of social conditioning from the day I was born, but I can live with that. I am not going to sleep with people I'm not attracted to. I don't get to sleep with all the people I am attracted to, for a variety of different reasons. It's okay to say no for any reason. Sex should only ever happen when it's mutually desired. No one is actually entitled to have sex, whatever men think.

This is such a good way of looking at it.

It also answers the race question - is it racist to not fancy a certain ethnicity for example.

Basically it could well be that one's preferences are influenced by inner prejudice, not seeing East Asians as attractive for example. But considering why that is, and thinking about Western beauty norms, and unpacking all of that doesn't have to involve having sex with someone you don't want to have sex with!

Also, from a woman's perspective why would you want someone to have sex with you who didn't want to? That "conquering" thing is a male fantasy. A lot of racist men will try to have sex with women of different races, it doesn't make them less racist. I remember reading stuff on the "hapa" Reddit threads where half East Asian half White American young people recounted tale after tale of their white dads being massively racist towards their mums, and discovering that their dad basically lived out a fetish for East Asian women (and that they, as the children of these unhappy marriages, had identity crises as a result, especially the young men who felt emasculated).

@Chrysanthemum5

So Ash is upset that this was a small survey of 80 people - can't draw any conclusions from that. But a survey of about 27 people is enough to say trans identified people are a huge risk of suicide

Right

And I'm so glad someone pointed this out

@FindTheTruth

Where is this lesbian scene with large groups of lesbians suggestions? I only ask for those of us who would be delighted to find it!

Yeah, I'd like to know too....

Same here

Basically it could well be that one's preferences are influenced by inner prejudice, not seeing East Asians as attractive for example. But considering why that is, and thinking about Western beauty norms, and unpacking all of that doesn't have to involve having sex with someone you don't want to have sex with!

It's also been my experience that sexual attraction is way less straightforward than that. It's entirely possible for someone without any racist reasons to just not find people from certain ethnicities all that attractive. and conversely, horrible bigots can be very sexually attracted to people they despise. Or sometimes people who are bigots are even attracted to, and fall in love with, someone from the group they are bigoted towards.

Sexual attraction and affection can be very opaque in their manifestations and don't always follow the logic you'd expect.

Sexual attraction and affection can be very opaque in their manifestations and don't always follow the logic you'd expect.
I agree, and the "unpacking" is just an exercise in examining possible factors. We're all inadvertently influenced by the weirdest things and I find it fascinating. I wouldn't expect that sexual attraction could be "gamed" in any way, we like who we like and that's that, really.

It can change over the years, I'm talking preferences here not sexual orientation, but I doubt anyone really succeeds in convincing themselves to feel attracted to someone. Even stories about arranged marriages are quite unspectacular in their depiction of the "and then we fell in love" moment; unfortunately women can get used to anything and have had to, for centuries. So "he turned out to be not too bad after all" about a man you had no choice in marrying isn't exactly analogous to the old Diet Coke adverts in the 90s with the women breaking their necks to sneak a peek at the fit bloke.

What's interesting also is the "just give him a chance" rhetoric that is very, very straight, and very sexist. There's no media cliche that says the opposite. No dowdy girl hero who gets the guy in the films. No "man as plot device".

"Try it, you might like it" is just "you haven't met the right man yet" and "just give him a chance". It's always about men getting their way with disinterested women, and never the reverse, and it is very clearly in play here. Manipulative behaviour, rapey behaviour, male behaviour.

Arranged marriages are an interesting point. They are kind of the antithesis of the casual sexual hook-up and don't operate on the same basis, it seems to me. For men or women. But anyone who is with one partner for many years is likely to experience periods where sexual attraction is low and you make it work anyway.

I don't think that really works in a paradigm where sex is paired with dating.

Solidarity with my lesbian sisters.

I am not lesbian but am so unbelievably upset and incandescent with rage at the reactions to the reporting of this story.

The misogyny!! The homophobia!! The full-on support for rape culture!! It's just horrific.

All those hundreds of smug men (and even some women) - who imagine themselves on the right side of history - commenting in a supposedly 'scientific' manner on the use of stats in the article but utterly refusing to even mention let alone care about the poor young women who have been brave enough to describe their rape.

It's like those commenting have never heard of qualitative research, like they've never heard of #MeToo, like the 1980s never happened and women loving women must accept 'corrective rape' or be regarded as sinful (which is just what the modern use of the word 'bigot' implies).

Lots of this stuff makes me angry; that the article got published at all is undoubtedly a sign of improvement. However, I still can't remember when I was more sickened and disgusted and furious at the responses of some supposedly 'reasonable' people on social media.

@FlyingOink - great post.

Really sickened that some are pretending that it isn't happening

@LonginesPrime

Well it's hard to do anything about it when you're vilified for saying that you want a female only space - the only way to get some breathing space from male-bodied people is to leave the queer community completely.

As a homosexual lesbian (can't believe I have to make that distinction), you cannot get away from a transwoman if they take a shine to you in a romantic context, e.g. at a club - even when you know you're not attracted to them and never will be because they're male-bodied, you have zero power to say "actually, I'm gay" like you could with a man, and so you just have to smile awkwardly until you spot an opportunity to make your excuses and leave (night ruined, but that's the norm).

And before people say "just tell the truth", that's not possible as it's really scary in the queer community if you believe in biological sex - they treat you like you're an insane time-travelling alien. I'm not exaggerating. People literally can't understand biological sex in that community and are convinced it's been debunked.

Come join the ordinary people in the outside world, you belong with us. You have sensible thoughts and don't sound like you belong in this cult alternate community.

Closed communities can have some very disturbing restrictions that amount to profound constrictions on how people live and think: it's understandable how people end up obliged to believe a Sacred Science (biological sex has been debunked) that doesn't hold up outside that community.

That is pretty much how any cult works isn't it?

How much of a bubble must these people be in to not see it ? It's all over social media for a start ,