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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

OP posts:
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20
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 12:24

@CatherinaJTV

76 transwomen in prison for sexual offences against 125 women prisoners

? link please

Quote

"What can be said, however, is that data collected across the prison estate in March/April 2019 recorded the following:

i) There were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

ii) 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate. Of the 129 in the male estate, 74 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

iii) Although no records are kept, the number of transgender prisoners with a GRC is thought to be very low: a single-figure total across the estate as a whole."

Source: www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html

thirdfiddle · 27/10/2021 12:24

And maybe "some" lesbians are sexual offenders, but orders of magnitude fewer proportionally than males.
We can't prevent every crime. Safeguarding concentrates on higher risk groups. Like males.

That's not what we're talking about here though. We're talking about the pressure on lesbians to date or even sleep with males identifying as lesbians, which is inherent in gender identity ideology. A structural problem, a problem that arises directly from the ideology as confirmed by statements from e.g. Stonewall. Not individual offenders, mainstream LGBT orgs are saying lesbians should consider their biases if they don't fancy males. We're talking about lesbians being thrown out of LGBT groups or dating sites or pelted with insults if they want to say they're not attracted to male bodies. Of course that applies pressure. Absurd to say it doesn't.

Sophoclesthefox · 27/10/2021 12:26

Cracking reticle by the BBC. I’ve sent them a comment to thank them for the reporting.

I can’t honestly believe that people are taking the position that we shouldn’t believe lesbians telling us what is happening to them, but as always, I’ve been overly optimistic about the depths to which some people will sink. More mind blowing still that this position is taken in the name of “progress”.

It’s just lesbophobia.

BatmansBat · 27/10/2021 12:27

I have still not been informed if I am allowed to exclude women from my dating pool (being heterosexual) or if I need to include everyone just to make sure that I don’t bend to societal prejudice?

I expect I don’t though. I have this funny feeling that it mainly is penis people who are desperate to be included everywhere and who wants sex with people even if it isn’t an enthusiastic “yes”.

I just don’t get it. Why on Earth would you want to be with someone who wasn’t into you? It is just so rapey.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 27/10/2021 12:27

Unsurprisingly, some are finding this article discomforting.

NotBadConsidering · 27/10/2021 12:28

Looking forward to thread 2 where multiple attempts to dismiss women’s experiences rapidly in order to make this thread fill up and disappear from prominence will need to start all over again.

Livelifeinthebuslane · 27/10/2021 12:28

Data from 469 transgender women (TW) and 433 transgender men (TM) were analyzed cross-sectionally and prospectively. At baseline, more than half reported having no partner (35% of TW, 47% of TM). After 12 months, more than half reported having a partner (59% of TW, 56% of TM), with no changes between one and three years of HT. The majority of TM preferred a female partner, TW preferred male and female partners.

I can't access the whole study for another few months, but the graphs on this page (although not easy to read) show that the majority of transwomen are attracted predominantly to either men or women, not both @CatherinaJTV - your statement refers to TW as a group, not individual TW.

www.researchgate.net/figure/Percentages-for-the-frequency-distributions-for-peoples-selfdescribed-sexual-orientation_fig2_348694002

BloodinGutters · 27/10/2021 12:29

I don’t think the equality act can be argued to be a sub culture.

It’s very clear that it’s defined in law that homosexuality as a protected characteristic is same SEX attracted, not same gender.

Now it’s not like any of us are going up to random lesbians at these uber packed lesbian clubs and telling them they aren’t doing lesbianising right if they fuck a transwoman. Lots of words get used to mean slightly different things to what they actually mean, I mean no one actually thinks the term rape of the planet involves men forcing their penis’ into the soil, but that works fine because everyone knows what rape as a crime is and that talking about the rape of the planet isn’t seeking to redefine the legal definition or obfuscate the experience of those of us who are rape victims. But some lesbians claiming their ‘version’ of lesbianism is the correct one does dictate to other lesbians what their sexual orientation is.

*i’m really enjoying typing lesbian today. It really is a awesome looking word. (Totally off topic I know)

NecessaryScene · 27/10/2021 12:30

I certainly wouldn't have believed any of this until I saw people like Catherina and the way they respond. So utterly unashamed of their blatant homophobia.

But they were so easy to find when I looked for them. It was maybe hard to tell how common they were.

But what was telling was the total lack of pushback. Stonewall et al were and are fully on board with Catherina types shitting on lesbians. Catherina is not an outlier.

This was all obvious in 2018, but it wasn't really reaching the public. So many were a bit confused by why LGB Alliance is needed. The "no debate" tactic served to hide what Stonewall was saying.

Game's kind of over now. Everyone can see it.

But I am impressed at the commitment. They're going to go down guns blazing, still shitting on lesbians. (Weird mixed metaphor)...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2021 12:30

There is no such thing as a trans female, there are transwomen, who are male. Therefore as a homosexual woman, I will not ever be sexually attracted to or willing to have a sexual relationship with a male person. I see sex. I have a sexual orientation based on sex. How male born people feel about this is not relevant.

Go get your pitchfork, call me whatever names you like. It used to be a matter of Pride that homosexual women could name their sexual orientation and not be ashamed and have to hide it.

Perfectly put.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 27/10/2021 12:31

Great, the be kind pick me penis panderers are trending 😒 And despite the hashtag it's all about the penis people, as per usual.

It's so sad, in the name of inclusiveness and kindness they will happily betray their own sex. When women tell their experiences of coercion and rape, these people will stand in solidarity but not with women Sad

Would it hurt, would it really fucking hurt to say "you know what, we may not agree but coercion and rape is not on so we are sorry that it's happened to you"

But no. Deny deny deny, close ranks, don't believe those women, those women are bigots, they've made it all up to attack us, feel sorry for us, we're the real victims, blah blah de blah blah.

KingsleyShacklebolt · 27/10/2021 12:31

@BatmansBat

I have still not been informed if I am allowed to exclude women from my dating pool (being heterosexual) or if I need to include everyone just to make sure that I don’t bend to societal prejudice?

I expect I don’t though. I have this funny feeling that it mainly is penis people who are desperate to be included everywhere and who wants sex with people even if it isn’t an enthusiastic “yes”.

I just don’t get it. Why on Earth would you want to be with someone who wasn’t into you? It is just so rapey.

Well quite. As a straight woman, am I being homophobic by not being into women? And as someone pushing 50, should I be in the market for a new partner, i'd be excluding anyone under the age of about 45 too.

Is that ageist?

QueenSue · 27/10/2021 12:33

Yes it's happening in this very thread.
There are lesbian women who sleep with trans women - those who don't are unreasonable and prejudiced.
Lesbian women are unreasonable and prejudiced for not wanting to be with men.
It's unreasonable and prejudiced by women in general to say no to men.
We've heard it all before.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2021 12:34

Stonewall is telling lesbians that only being attracted to female people is due to 'prejudice'.

Societal prejudice.

Oh, societal prejudice that same sex attraction should not exist or be spoken about, you mean?

OhHolyJesus · 27/10/2021 12:36

From the Daily Mail, where the 'lived experience' of lesbians is real.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10132549/Lesbian-claims-shes-seen-people-identify-trans-women-bully-young-girls-relationship.html

FindTheTruth · 27/10/2021 12:37

'mainstream organisations are promoting the idea of the cotton ceiling'

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 12:37

*here we have the "sub culture" of women telling other women what their sexual orientation is...^

So you did see my post then. Fancy engaging with any of the other words in it beyond "subculture"?

I reproduce

So are you going to engage with the issue being exposed here: a subculture that will excuse and enable rapists? A culture where No is not accepted?

You realise the article is explicitly discussing that, yes?

Here are some quotes.

"Ultimately, it has been difficult to determine the true scale of the problem because there has been little research on this topic - only one survey to my knowledge. However, those affected have told me the pressure comes from a minority of trans women, as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves."

(Continues)

""I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.

Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.

"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad?Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore?Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

(Continues)

She believes the idea that dating preferences are transphobic is being pushed by radical trans activists and their "self-proclaimed allies", who have extreme views which don't reflect the views of trans women she knowsin real life.

"Certainly from my own friends group, the trans women I'm friends with, almost all of them agree lesbians are free to exclude trans women from their dating pool," she said.

However, she believes even trans people are afraid to talk openly about this for fear of abuse.

"People like me receive quite a lot of abuse from trans activists and their allies," she said.

"The trans activist side is incredibly rabid against people who they see as stepping out of line."

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 12:38

That's to CatherinaJTV

Datun · 27/10/2021 12:39

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Stonewall is telling lesbians that only being attracted to female people is due to 'prejudice'.

Societal prejudice.

Oh, societal prejudice that same sex attraction should not exist or be spoken about, you mean?

What does that even mean? That lesbians only like women because society tells them?
QueenSue · 27/10/2021 12:44

OhHolyJesus
Thank god that there are news articles that actually take women's experiences seriously.
I'm furious, this is so clearly simply rapey men preying on insecure teenage girls who aren't even attracted to men.

'You're getting trans women who haven't been through any kind of medical transition, who haven't even attempted to change their appearances, who claim to be trans, or non-binary or gender fluid, who are self-identifying as lesbians.
My experience of what I'm seeing on the gay scene is that there are lots of very young lesbians, some very vulnerable at just 14, 15 or 16-years-old, who are obviously not attracted to biological men - hence they're lesbians - who are being coerced into dating trans women.

Beowulfa · 27/10/2021 12:44

@CatherinaJTV

if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

What is wrong with this statement?

Look, nobody should have sex with people they don't want to, because rape is a bit naughty, but if you don't fancy someone, you should really go away and think about it. And then come back and say Yes because it's awfully mean to say No.- Stonewall
EBearhug · 27/10/2021 12:47

As a straight woman, am I being homophobic by not being into women? And as someone pushing 50, should I be in the market for a new partner, i'd be excluding anyone under the age of about 45 too.
What if I don't like their taste in music or their politics? Can I decide to be totally celibate, if I'm not allowed to ignore those whose genitals I am not interested in?

Why can't someone be allowed to choose who they may want to have sex with for their own reasons, and if the other person says no, for whatever reason, just live with it? Having sex for ideological reasons rather than because you just fancy the pants off each other is not a path anyone should take.

CharlieParley · 27/10/2021 12:48

my original point yesterday that some more people have brought up is that the article is based on biased and shoddy research. My point today is more evidence of that.

There is no evidence of that, CatherinaJTV and none of your comments have provided any. There are two types of research the article is based on:

First and foremost, the journalist's own research which consisted of many more interviews with real people in real life than she used in the article. And second it is supported by the research done by others into the same issue.

The journalist is researching two particular claims:

  1. "Lesbians are being pressured into accepting males who identify as trans as sexual partners" and
  1. "Lesbians who resist this pressure because they are exclusively same-sex attracted are faced with hostility and/or violence from within their own community for doing so"

As a trained journalist myself, I would do exactly what the author did:

  1. Look for qualitative research into the issue (she finds Angela C Wild's report and a number of websites collecting testimonials)
  2. Look for quantitative research into the issue (she finds none)
  3. Look into the history of the issue and identify the big players (normally, in a well researched area, you'd get a lot of material about the history and big groups involved after going through points 1 and 2)
  4. Identify the people affected and find out where they are
  5. Approach the people affected (that could be cold-calling or emailing particular groups connected to the issue, but these days a first step is often a call on social media)
  6. Interview respondents
  7. Factcheck and verify as much as you can of their claims (that could be corroboration through witnesses or other victims or perpetrators' own words, printed or published materials detailed the alleged attitudes/wrongdoings, comparing and contrasting interviews to find similarities and differences)
  8. Interview opponents who deny the problem or those whose attitudes/actions are being criticised
  9. Approach the big players for comment
10. Write your article 11. Give it over to your editor 12. Make any necessary changes requested by legal, factcheckers or editor 13. Submit final copy

The author of that piece spent more than 12 months on it. In that time she'll have gone through steps 4 to 8 several times, and not always in that order. If enough time passes, you do steps 1 through 3 again, just to make sure you haven't missed any new developments.

So, the survey by Angela C Wild is a very small part of the research and therefore a small part of the article. As demonstrated by PurgatoryofPotholes on page 35 of this thread, who simply excised the survey-related text which left 95% of the article intact.

Furthermore, there is a difference between a poll and a survey. They are two different methods of collecting data. Angela C Wild's report, as quoted in the article, is based on a survey. That's why this article did not violate the BBC's own guidelines on using polls, and it is also using the data from the survey correctly.

On the question of bias: It is illogical to frame an article reporting on the existence of a problem as being biased for reporting on the existence of a problem. If that was the case, we could never report on problems at all. Journalistic practice seeks to avoid bias by using a "both sides of the issue" approach. This isn't always appropriate or straightforward, but the author of this article did use that approach. She spent much time and effort seeking opposing voices. In order to avoid giving undue power to one side by allowing them to sabotage reporting through non-participation, she essentially empty-chaired the opposing voices who refused to be interviewed.

It's not an acceptable criticism of the piece that it is biased by only giving a voice to female survivors of sexual violence coming from male members of the trans community, because the subject matter of the article is only that particular type of violence and not others. It is also not valid criticism that no women who happily accept male members of the trans community as sexual partners were interviewed for the piece, because we don't interview people who are not survivors of violence when we're trying to highlight that violence happens. That would just be nonsensical.

The BBC met here in this article all of its own standards. Which leaves you with a subject you find unpalatable, I suspect for the same reason as Finn Mackay, because it brings the LGBT community into disrepute and in particular it brings some male members of the trans community into disrepute.

That's only a problem if you believe that we must sweep female survivors of male violence under the carpet for the greater good of the community they belong to, to make sure perceived and real enemies of that community cannot use their experiences to thwart the community's aims.

I know where I stand on that idea.

aliasundercover · 27/10/2021 12:54

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians

Cis doesn't mean anything, and and they're not lesbians

merrymouse · 27/10/2021 12:59

There are plenty of cis lesbians in a relationship with trans female lesbians

I’m not sure exactly what you mean here, but from a legal point of view you may be talking about people who are in heterosexual relationships.

I hope they are very happy, but that really isn’t the same thing as being in a same sex relationship.

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