Page 2 | BBC article about cotton ceiling

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 2021-10-26T08:54:57+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385]] including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

Original poster

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 10:25

Link in the first post is still working fine.

OP posts:

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/10/2021 10:28

My preferred version:

If you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, that's up to you.

Your body is not subject to equality legislation. You are not providing a service, you are seeking a mutually satisfying relationship.

It doesn't matter why you don't want to date someone. Maybe it's their sex. Maybe it's because they wear uggs. Your No, means NO.

bordersroaming · 26/10/2021 10:30

Isn't it rape if you feel forced to have sex against your will?

NecessaryScene · 26/10/2021 10:32

How can anyone take Stonewall seriously if they don't seem to understand the basic concept of sexual orientation?

Who is this outfit supposed to be for at this point? Is it just for creepy males with lesbian fantasies?

terryleather · 26/10/2021 10:35

Who is this outfit supposed to be for at this point? Is it just for creepy males with lesbian fantasies?

It would appear so...

Whatwouldscullydo · 26/10/2021 10:35

Isn't it rape if you feel forced to have sex against your will

Yes. This is corrective rape wrapped in a rainbow.

Sexuality by its very nature is exclusionary. You exclude 99.9 percent of the population 99.9 percent of the time.

Besides couldn't they just date eachother?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 10:35

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Kelley's argument is a reword of Srinivasan's Right to Sex where she problematises the nature of desire in a way that would banish any flicker of desire that you ever felt again if you scrutinised it in such a fashion.

Good piece. I did have a moment when I wondered if it would be helpful to state the age and surgery status of most TW who transition but, who knew, a journalist and editor judged this better than I would have done.

Datun · 26/10/2021 10:35

@NecessaryScene

How can anyone take Stonewall seriously if they don't seem to understand the basic concept of sexual orientation?

Who is this outfit supposed to be for at this point? Is it just for creepy males with lesbian fantasies?

They make a point of never answering any questions, don't they?

At some point, they are going to have to be held accountable.

And what is a lesbian is going to be the first question.

As someone upthread pointed out, it's very Gerald Ratner.

Franca123 · 26/10/2021 10:36

Correct me if im wrong. But the BBC cannot remain associated with Stonewall after that article. Surely this has forced their hand?

MissChanandlerBong81 · 26/10/2021 10:36

I'm glad that the concept of the cotton ceiling is being discussed. Anyone reading it will instantly believe it, too. It's sooo same old, same old.

Men pressuring women into sex is such a familiar concept, that everything else will just instantly slot into place.

I thought this when I read the article. I’m not a lesbian, but it instantly rang true. It’s a different context to my personal experience, but fundamentally it’s same old, same old male entitlement to sex.

I couldn’t see any mention of straight men being branded transphobic or being threatened if they don’t wish to have sex with transwomen. Just lesbians. Funny, that.

PronounssheRa · 26/10/2021 10:39

Wow. This would have been unthinkable just a few months ago.

That stonewall statement is awful, but I'm glad they made it. They are quite clear that they see sexual orientation as a prejudice and remain silent on the very obvious attempts at conversion therapy. I would go as far as to say stonewall are engaging in attempted conversion therapy with this statement But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attraction

If stonewall aren't going to defend same sex attraction what's the point of them.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 10:40

I can't emphasise enough what a huge momentous turning point this is to see the BBC finally reporting what lesbians have been saying for 6 YEARS!!!

Compare that to the BBC headline in 2018 "Pride in London sorry after anti-trans protest". the BBC has gone from calling lesbians anti-trans to recognising that lesbians are being pressured into sex by males - which is what the protest in 2018 was about along with the erasure of lesbian identity and space.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 10:41

Nancy Kelley CEO of stonewall calls lesbian same-sex attraction a 'social prejudice'.

Neoncheerio · 26/10/2021 10:42

This isn't my conversation but I was following it on Facebook. I thanked her and was banned from posting. The people attacking her are transwomen. She was told to "take steps" to address her prejudice and that she was "garbage".

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/10/2021 10:42

Great article! More sunlight!

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 10:44

stonewall are engaging in attempted conversion therapy with this statement

Socialised conversion therapy. Lesbophobic social coercion conversion therapy

nauticant · 26/10/2021 10:44

The Pravda signal has gone out and Ash Sarkar is on the case:

twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1452921646784856076

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 26/10/2021 10:45

...if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people...

Or male people, apparently, because that's the context here.

Franca123 · 26/10/2021 10:45

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Kelley's argument is a reword of Srinivasan's Right to Sex where she problematises the nature of desire in a way that would banish any flicker of desire that you ever felt again if you scrutinised it in such a fashion.

Good piece. I did have a moment when I wondered if it would be helpful to state the age and surgery status of most TW who transition but, who knew, a journalist and editor judged this better than I would have done.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. This is where we end up. And i don't like it. I once broke up with a guy who was great in every respect as I didn't like his shoes. They made me feel uneasy. That's OK. That's up to me. These people are sick.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 10:47

I couldn’t see any mention of straight men being branded transphobic or being threatened if they don’t wish to have sex with transwomen. Just lesbians. Funny, that

I didn't know if that was intentional because of the different:
–(physical) power dynamics of the material sex reality of the people involved v. the cotton ceiling disparity;
–potential to invoke the slur of homophobia (IYSWIM) whether the TW were pre-op, intentionally no-removal-of-sexual-characteristics, or post-op.

That piece was a good standalone. I've just had a thought. Is the BBC going to be flooded by complaints from heterosexual men asking why they weren't included in this? Either pro, against or just because?

rabbitwoman · 26/10/2021 10:47

to be honest, i am shaking with excitement at this being published by the BBC!!

Honestly, all the people i speak to in real life, including mothers of lesbians, completely laugh me off as a conspiracy theorist and just don't believe me. Well here it is in very damning black and white by the BBC, no less. Not a niche online publication, not just the obsessives at Mumsnet, but the BBC!!

AAAAND with a long quote from the LGBA, without referring to them once as a hate group!!! And how reasonable and measured do they sound? Interesting that the BBC even went to the LGBA for a quote, and the huge contract between them and Stonewall, who refused to comment.

Hopefully this is the first of many. I would like to see an exposee next of AC and how her influence shaped Stonewall policy.....

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 26/10/2021 10:48

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

My preferred version:

If you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, that's up to you.

Your body is not subject to equality legislation. You are not providing a service, you are seeking a mutually satisfying relationship.

It doesn't matter why you don't want to date someone. Maybe it's their sex. Maybe it's because they wear uggs. Your No, means NO.

Hear, hear.

PronounssheRa · 26/10/2021 10:48

On a lighter note, I never expected to see these words in a BBC article 'How do you know you don't like dick if you haven't tried it?'"

PaleBlueMoonlight · 26/10/2021 10:48

@bebanjo

Iv just read this, come hear to see if there was a thread on it and now can’t find it, please tell me I’m being dim, please tell me it’s been archived.

It's been archived ten times today on wayback machine!

Datun · 26/10/2021 10:50

@Neoncheerio

This isn't my conversation but I was following it on Facebook. I thanked her and was banned from posting. The people attacking her are transwomen. She was told to "take steps" to address her prejudice and that she was "garbage".

Ugh. But fortunately, as soon as one is aware of the concept of the cotton ceiling, exchanges like this instantly translate into man coercing woman into sex. One doesn't even have to blink to see it.

No amount of obscuring words like aversion, discriminatory, transphobic, or prejudice can disguise it.

I don't think I have ever seen the term cotton ceiling put into mainstream media. This is brilliant.