BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

There are plenty ofcis lesbiansin a relationship with trans female lesbians

Cis doesn't mean anything, and and they're not lesbians

Doesn't matter anyway. Just because some people are happy doing one thing Doesn't mean everyone will be. Whether your orientation is to sleep with men or women or trans people or a mix, I would be very surprised if there was no one who chooses to sleep with absolutely everyone. Even those who have relationships with trans women won't have a relationship with just any trans woman. You still need to "click" with someone, and the reason you find someone attractive is as likely to be because of their sense of humour or how their eyes crinkle at the corner when they smile or because they share your passion for the history of sewing machines as much as anything else. No one is attracted to everyone, even if on paper they tick all your boxes around genital preference, age range, hair colour or whatever else does it for you.

Seeing as people in this thread are obsessed with Angela Wild's questionnaire, I took the liberty of c+p'ing stuff from it.

EXTRACT

As a lesbian I have heard many lesbians privately discuss being targeted by transactivists for being lesbians.
Those stories were hushed in confidence, suppressed, women justifiably fearing retaliation from perpetrators.
This silencing means that there are very few public stories of lesbians on the “cotton ceiling”, a point often advanced by transactivists to dismiss lesbians’ dissent. The aim of this study was to give silenced lesbians an opportunity to speak anonymously about their experience when faced with men who identify as transwomen, while
formally gathering the missing evidence.
The survey aimed to find whether there is a form of social pressure on lesbians to accept trans ideology within the LGBT community, and what form this may take. How does this affect their ability to meet other lesbians?
Are lesbian dating sites safe for lesbians? Is this social pressure influencing lesbians’ life and their sexual life? If lesbians are pressured online, could they also be pressured offline? Are lesbians experiencing any form of sexual violence from men who call themselves lesbians? If yes what form does this sexual violence take?

(Continues)

Research tools and method

The research was initially planned to be a series of interviews conducted with women who would be preselected after taking part in the questionnaire. After careful consideration a questionnaire was deemed more suitable in order to map an under-researched issue. A questionnaire enables the researcher to ask respondents a wider variety of questions in a short space of time (Sarantokos, 2012) and gives respondents the chance to complete the questionnaire in their own time (Curtis and Curtis, 2011).
The survey comprised of 30 questions about lesbians’ experience. It had sections relating to the following subjects: respondent identity, their experiences in LGBT groups and on lesbian dating sites, their experiences interacting with men who identify as transwomen as potential sexual partners. For the purpose of the survey, I used the queer terminology “transwomen” as advised by the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee believed that the survey should be “objective” but did not consider that the term “transwomen” is not an objective term and is far less widely accepted than they claimed, a point noted by a respondent who complained that the term was incorrect and misleading as “transwomen” are biologically male, therefore “not a subset of women”.
The survey was sent to women-only and lesbian-only groups on social media, as well as to individual lesbians in my own networks. As such the sample does not claim to be a representative sample of the lesbian community.
However, the research was to capture the points of view and stories of many, until now, silenced lesbians.

Findings

Within a few days, 80 women had responded to the survey, far more than originally planned. This rapid engagement demonstrates a keen interest by women who are affected by such issues and the recognition that there is a lack of work and visibility in this area. Several women left private notes, thanking me for the opportunity to speak up. Lesbians were eager to share their stories. The intention was to record lesbians’ experiences from the UK (48%), however the survey was also answered by women across the world 9, highlighting that the questions raised
concerns for lesbians in different parts of the western world. All age groups were represented. Due to the imposed time constraints of the research, I had to limit the number of questions relating to demographic information and also relating to the location e.g. rural/city provenance. Future research that will attempt to understand these views in more depth and detail will take more factors into considerations.

Same tactics the Catholic Church used to ignore victims for decades.🙈🙉🙊

I would be very surprised if there was no one who chooses to sleep with absolutely everyone.

For no one, read anyone.

Oh, to be able to edit...

@QueenSue

OhHolyJesus Thank god that there are news articles that actually take women's experiences seriously. I'm furious, this is so clearly simply rapey men preying on insecure teenage girls who aren't even attracted to men.

'You're getting trans women who haven't been through any kind of medical transition, who haven't even attempted to change their appearances, who claim to be trans, or non-binary or gender fluid, who are self-identifying as lesbians.
My experience of what I'm seeing on the gay scene is that there are lots of very young lesbians, some very vulnerable at just 14, 15 or 16-years-old, who are obviously not attracted to biological men - hence they're lesbians - who are being coerced into dating trans women.

It's if great relief isn't it to see coverage of a report published TWO YEARS ago, it's taken this long and the timing - after OFCOM left the Stonewall scheme, after the Nolan Podcast - has not gone unnoticed.

There is no denying now that this is not a fringe issue, this is 100% mainstream and I hope the BBC receives many positive comments of support in both the article page and the comments tab on the complaints page.

500 complaints probably isn't very much compared to the page impressions worldwide.

The stonewall position on this is extremely disturbing. Suggesting people reconsider their sexual orientation as their position might be down to societal pressures is unforgivable from an organisation that purports to speak for the rights and protections of those with same sex sexual orientation. It is worrying that young people exploring their own sexuality are growing up with these messages and in this current atmosphere.

The problem with the genderist ideology is that gender trumps sex, which effectively makes expressing sexual orientation impossible.

This ends up in the nonsensical position of demanding a lesbian describe themself as bisexual if they have a relationship with a transman, otherwise they are rapey.

If we could just name men with a special gender identity as the men they are, the arguments would be very clear. Thanks for posting the survey, Purgatory. I had noticed that the university ethics cttee demanded the obfuscatory word transwoman be used in the survey despite the writer's and her target audience's resistance.

@TeamRex

Conversely if a negative feature becomes salient and used as a benchmark for considering future interactions.

So that is a difficulty for an already marginalised, vulnerable group which many people in the general public don't actually have extensive interactions with to from their own opinions.

You are saying that lesbians should not have their stories told about men coercing them into sex/relationships because the men are in "a marginalised group".

I think you have bought into the single story of men who say they are women being marginalised, when in fact they do have agency, they are responsible for their own actions and they shouldn't be telling women they are transphobic if those women only want relationships with women.

I watched that video about the danger of single stories, it's very powerful.

You seem to think that the message was that we should not tell any negative stories about groups of people for fear of people interpreting it as the only story.

You need to think a little harder, the whole point was that there is always more than one story.

And the person who wrote the BBC article was mindful of that, which is probably why they had men (who call themselves women) commenting in the article.

Actually I didn't make any point that this story should not be covered.

I was highlighting how these single stories can work in the minds of the public who have no other exposure to an extreme minority group, and can set a benchmark and framework for perception.

You can see in the Daily Mail article that covered it that for a lot of commenters there they had never heard of trans lesbians before - so for them, that is their first story of translesbians, and first stories are incredibly powerful in setting overall prejudices and mindsets for first actual encounters with an individual from a particular social group.

You're right, the whole point is there are other stories - but what other stories are you hearing about translesbians at the moment? What other stories do you think those Daily Mail readers are hearing?

Of course translesbians, like everyone else, have agency. And I would have real problems if I heard that any translesbians I knew were conveying to other lesbians that they had any right to sex from anyone, and then if refused, said that person was being transphobic.

I've never seen this myself, but if others have experienced that I accept that and find it concerning. But as I've said before I've seen plenty of concerning behaviours from women over the years - I don't think trans or non-trans status is relevant to this.

I keep checking to see if Rose of Dawn has published a video to talk about participating in the article but there's nothing as yet.

RoD's videos have been sporadic for a while but it would be interesting to see this discussed.

surely the very existence of the term ‘cotton ceiling’ proves the article is truthful.

Why would some transwomen be complaining of how unfair it is to hit the cotton ceiling if didn’t want to smash through that cotton ceiling?

It’s a term there’s evidence stonewall supported/endorsed the seminars on. It’s not a term the journalist made up.

So the very existence of this term proves it’s truth surely?

We don’t even need the ‘survey’ some posters are complaining about, or the experiences of the lesbians targeted/raped, the transwomen who say they know it happens to lesbian friends, or even stonewalls vile rapey comment.

Stonewall were fine with the term at the time of these seminars, and hasn’t done any huge public 180 with apologies since, so we can presume are still fine with it.

The term itself proves it’s truth.

More extracts from this "poll". Hint, it's not a poll, and I would expect a Year 8 maths student to use more accurate language.

extract

The majority of respondents reported being part of lesbian, queer or LGBT groups online (11%), offline (37%) or both (48%). 72% reported being part of strictly women-only groups (excluding “transwomen”).
Women were also part of groups which are mixed – including men and women (20%),
inclusive of all gender (21%),
women-only but including self-identifying women (20%)
and welcoming of “transwomen” (26%).

Women who were in groups that were not “women-only” reported “feeling silenced”, “intimidated”, “unable to speak freely”, “uncomfortable” with the group policy and wishing the group was for women only but “dare not say it”. Several reported how “transwomen derail” and monopolise the discussion to be solely about their issues while shutting down discussion about women’s or lesbians’ issues by calling it “transphobic”. Group dynamics are described as “toxic”. Several women explain how “transwomen are behaving just like men”.

Lesbians constantly report being told their sexuality is “wrong” if they openly state they are solely attracted to women.

Women reported “threats”, “intimidations” and “abuse”, by “transwomen” and allies.
Several respondents explained they understand and respect the need for “transwomen” to meet exclusively amongst themselves but cannot understand the lack of reciprocity accorded to women and lesbians by the trans community.

50% of women reported being excluded from their LGBT group(s).

The reason for their removal was made clear: questioning any aspect of the queer doctrine results in women be-
ing labelled “transphobic”, resulting in a ban. Respondents were banned for sharing articles from feminists that their group disapproved of, or for stating biological facts about sex and anatomy such as: “just females have periods”.
Several respondents have left groups themselves due to intimidation or before being pushed out.
Women who are still in LGBT groups have not been excluded because they report “not being open with their views".

66% of respondents reported being intimidated or receiving threats in their LGBT group(s).
For questioning the trans doctrine or just stating they were lesbians, respondents reported experiences including: verbal abuse, death and rape threats, pressure to commit suicide, threats of physical or sexual violence, threats to kill family members, receiving “transwoman nudes”, threats of “doxing”, actual online “doxing” (including exposure
of their name, picture and home address), threats of exposure to employers.
While most of this intimidation happened online, many women also reported offline threats:
• Two respondents were threatened at their place of work and one lost her job.
• A woman’s employer was repeatedly contacted with attempts to have her dismissed,
• Two respondents were subjected to intimidating behaviour from “transwomen” at lesbian events,
• A seventy-year-old woman reported being “physically threatened and forced out” of a group by a physically intimidating “transwoman”.

This ends up in the nonsensical position of demanding a lesbian describe themself as bisexual if they have a relationship with a transman, otherwise they are rapey.

Or heterosexual. Given one is male and one is female, according to transgenderism.

The reason why sexual orientation is protected is because of homophobia.

The intense irony of creating a situation that is extremely homophobic, in order to claim support as an anti-homophobia organisation is excruciating.

I don’t understand why, given all the techniques abusive men have used to obtain sex from women, this is supposed to be the line they will not cross???

Meanwhile Stonewall feeds them lines.

These are women who have been raped?

You object to the reporting because they were raped by people who you consider marginalised ?

Isn't that Rotherham all over again?

Perhaps instead of thinking of how marginalised those people are , you could think of the harm done to another marginalised group?

Perhaps you could consider if the kid glove treatment is enabling those rapes?

Perhaps you would like to consider the male privilege being demonstrated by those rapists who according to you are marginalised?

The article went out if its way to stress the not all are like that

You can see in the Daily Mail article that covered it that for a lot of commenters there they had never heard of trans lesbians before - so for them, that is their first story of translesbians, and first stories are incredibly powerful in setting overall prejudices and mindsets for first actual encounters with an individual from a particular social group.

As males who identify as women can never be lesbians , I am sure that the Dail Mail is only expressing the incredulity of everyone that male people would have the audacity to appropriate the word " lesbian" The use of this term is the very epitome of homophobia, shame on these people!

I really have enjoyed the contributions here from people who, in their rush to denounce the article, didn’t actually work out that their denunciation only strengthened the point made in the article which is that lesbian dissent from relationships with trans women is routinely squashed under some version of didn’t happen/not a big problem/you haven’t made your case/it’s just because you’re a bigot.

Well played!

But of course you can’t do otherwise, can you? As was pointed out upthread, you’ve either got to say that sexual orientation doesn’t exist, or that gender identity doesn’t over ride physical sex. A brave, foolish few (Nancy, Ash, a few posters here) know they mustn’t do the latter, so will go for the former, but most marginally sensible trans allies will just go silent rather than do that…

@Blackberrycream

The stonewall position on this is extremely disturbing. Suggesting people reconsider their sexual orientation as their position might be down to societal pressures is unforgivable from an organisation that purports to speak for the rights and protections of those with same sex sexual orientation. It is worrying that young people exploring their own sexuality are growing up with these messages and in this current atmosphere.

I've been wondering whether it is a good time to complain to Stonewall (again?) and ask some questions directly regarding this position. My understanding is that the charity commission encourage complaints to be settled directly but escalated to them if a satisfactory conclusion is not reached.

Surely an established and wealthy registered charity in the U.K. would not take the view that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment would entitle someone to sex and that this PC overrides the other PC of sexual orientation?

You can see in the Daily Mail article that covered it that for a lot of commenters there they had never heard of trans lesbians before - so for them, that is their first story of translesbians, and first stories are incredibly powerful in setting overall prejudices and mindsets for first actual encounters with an individual from a particular social group.

That's because there's no such thing as a male lesbian! You're never going to get male lesbians accepted by the general public, because it completely denies any kind of sexual orientation, including heterosexual.

You can see in the Daily Mail article that covered it that for a lot of commenters there they had never heard of trans lesbians before - so for them, that is their first story of translesbians, and first stories are incredibly powerful in setting overall prejudices and mindsets for first actual encounters with an individual from a particular social group.

Lesbians and feminists of all sexualities have said time and time again that what would happen if the problem of rapists and sexual coercion was continually swept under the carpet, was that it would eventually hit the mainstream like this.

They warned us all. They BEGGED the G, the B and the trans activists to take a stand and condemn rape apologists. They BEGGED the G, the B and the trans activists to stand with lesbians and distance themselves from rape apologism.

For years. That opportunity was refused.

The solution is not for lesbians to keep silent about sexual assault for wider political convenience.

I've never seen this myself, but if others have experienced that I accept that and find it concerning. But as I've said before I've seen plenty of concerning behaviours from women over the years - I don't think trans or non-trans status is relevant to this.

If any victim is stating that they have been coerced into this because of the fear of being said to be transphobic, IT IS RELEVANT.

We have had posters on these boards tell us this is the case. I have watched young lesbians tell each other that it is transphobic to reject dick.

You just accepted that if people are saying it happens, it happens. Then you completely minimise the contributing factors that came into play for it happening.

This is the n+1 argument through and through.

When will enough lesbians reporting that it is the case be enough for you?

As I've said before, lesbians are not robots filing down another line of robots with a binary code for acceptance or rejection.

We make rich, elaborate choices about who we want to date, and for some of those choices include translesbians, and they have been good choices resulting in happy relationships.

One lesbian's choice to include or exclude certain people says nothing about another lesbian's choices.

always n+1

stay strong women!

If you think the worst thing about the article is that it makes transwomen look bad...
If you read an article about what is essentially rape culture writ large and your response is "this makes male people look bad"..
And you excuse the behaviour with "other people do bad things too"...

Then you've got a problem.

women say no