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BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

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20
KeyboardWorriers · 26/10/2021 21:58

@lateforschool

The phrase ‘cotton ceiling’ is loathesome - breaking through the glass ceiling / breaking through the cotton ceiling - literally smashing through someone’s underwear to get into the knickers. It couldn’t sound more like coercion or rape.
Yes. I hadn't heard of this before and it is utterly revolting and distressing. It has given me horrible flashbacks.
OldCrone · 26/10/2021 22:00

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough.

Isn't enough for what?

I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.

Your argument seems to be that lots of lesbians haven't experienced this, therefore we shouldn't care about the ones who have. Have I got that right?

Chewieboora · 26/10/2021 22:04

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
Confused

Oh well, that's okay then. What the fuck?

The woman in the article was raped. It's disgusting.

DerryWitch · 26/10/2021 22:05

Have you seen that the article has been disappeared from the BBC home page and news app? By putting it under England News, which totally changes every few hours, when it should be a feature or long read, which stay on the home page and app for 3 or 4 days.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 26/10/2021 22:05

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
Isn't enough?

Yikes!!!

yourhairiswinterfire · 26/10/2021 22:07

but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.

Not enough lesbians have been raped/coerced into sex with males for it to be considered a problem?! It absolutely is an issue IRL for those women that it's happened to.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 26/10/2021 22:08

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
So if you have never been raped yourself you should not care about the rape of other women because its 'not an issue in RL' for you? Confused
suggestionsplease1 · 26/10/2021 22:10

@logsonlogsoff

‘ So why is it transphobic of a lesbian to refuse to sleep with a transwoman with a penis who is of the opposite sex and therefore heteosexual regardless of the gender they identify? ’

It’s not. And outside of a core of trans activists on SM no-one in RL in the queer world thinks it is. Another lesbian here saying it’s bullshit, and the supposed cotton ceiling is a made up BS Term that activists on both sides like to scream about but which isn’t a thing in the real world for us queers.

I have to agree with this. I'm a lesbian, out every weekend on the scene with large groups of lesbians, yes some of them are translesbians but I'd estimate that at about 2-5% of all the lesbians present where I am anyway.

I personally have never seen any issues with translesbians being inappropriate, let alone coercive, but I can tell you now I have seen plenty of occasions when non trans lesbians have been inappropriate! (I'm not a particular fan of the term 'cis' so I won't use that, but you know what I mean)

Just on Friday a couple of us had to step in in a club when one very drunk woman was being too full on and touch feely dancing with another, very uncomfortable, younger woman. (The 2nd woman ended up going home early, not a great night for her.)

So entitlement and coercion can definitely be at work in our communities (and of course the straight dating scene as well as the gay dating scene), and I don't discount translesbians from that, (although I have never witnessed it myself) but I don't think trans or non-trans status is an influential variable/ contributing factor to poor behaviour.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 26/10/2021 22:11

Yet again there is a basic misunderstanding of science. The reports of the experiences of i0 women are just that. There is no attempt to generalise from that to suggest what % of lesbians have been assaulted in this way or the likelihood of a lesbian experiencing such abuse. Therefore the 'small number' argument holds no water. BTW how many women came forward to talk about sexual abuse in the film industry? Was it enough to listen to? Would be good to know what bar the TRA set. Might also help us know which bits of evidence of trans people being more vulnerable than others they would be putting to bed as the sample is too small to care about.

OvaHere · 26/10/2021 22:11

It could be 800 or 8000 lesbian women saying it and it would still never be enough for some people.

The point is, as Nancy CEO of Stonewall, helpfully told us, is that it's just plain wrong and bigoted for lesbians to reject penis if that penis has a woman identity.

Olderbadger1 · 26/10/2021 22:12

Maybe we need to pause with the compliments...

It now seems that the BBC has taken the piece off the app. It was a feature / long read story (which would normally stay on the main page for at least a few days. They've now made it an 'England News' story which means it has already been replaced by more recent stories.

In other words, it’s gone unless you know to search for it. Wonder why that is...

Maybe a new set of comments is called for? This is bloody important!
www.bbc.co.uk/contact/comments

Chewieboora · 26/10/2021 22:13

Alright, just ignore everyone the BBC spoke to then. Clearly you don't give a shit. That article is chilling and I cannot believe that because you don't have experience of something you are stating it doesn't happen.

DadDadDad · 26/10/2021 22:14

I've just checked the article and it doesn't use the word "survey" which is what some critics keep quoting.

If the article had simply described it as "she asked for women's experiences on social media and had 45 responses from women saying they had experienced this kind of pressure or coercion", we wouldn't be having this pointless argument over how representative the sample is. In fairness, you could add "35 women responded to say they hadn't experienced such pressure", but it wouldn't undermine the concern being raised.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 26/10/2021 22:14

The number of women this affects is something of a red herring anyway. The trans lobbying organisation stonewall giving transwomen permission to pressurise lesbians into sex would be a massive concern even if not a single woman had been assaulted in this way.

Delphinium20 · 26/10/2021 22:15

My take is that if one lesbian was coerced or raped by a man claiming to be a lesbian, it's one woman harmed too many. Even if someone who endorses the Cotton Ceiling hasn't raped anyone, they are supporting a very dangerous belief that harms women and a belief I see as deeply misogynistic.

littlbrowndog · 26/10/2021 22:15

6 months ago this thread would have been full of deletions

How it’s changed

All the women that were kicked off here permanently

😖

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 22:16

compliments to the BBC are vital right now. by all means complain about moving the article but if you do one thing please compliment the BBC for finally reporting on this issue after half a decade.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 26/10/2021 22:18

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

The number of women this affects is something of a red herring anyway. The trans lobbying organisation stonewall giving transwomen permission to pressurise lesbians into sex would be a massive concern even if not a single woman had been assaulted in this way.
Yes - that is the point here.

Whatever is or isn't happening on the ground, Stonewall is saying that lesbians excluding transwomen (ie. Males) from their dating pool is prejudiced and transphobic. Stonewall is saying that lesbians should override their innate sexual orientation in order not to be 'prejudiced'.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2021 22:18

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
Im sorry but why are you desperate to discredit women who have been raped and say they are unimportant because transwomens safety is more important?

Its very odd given what Stonewall themselves are now saying.

Why are you desperate to distract from Stonewalls explicit support for rape cultural within the TRA community.

Which is strangely all over twitter yet you say apparently doesn't exist. But is acknowledged as existing by Stonewall.

Why are you supporting Stonewall actively saying as an LGBT organisation that lesbians should address their socially constructed sexual preference and do dick. Stonewall are saying that lesbian homosexual preference isnt innate but gender identity is and is superior to lesbian sexual preferences?

I thought it was homophobic to suggest you can 'unlearn' same sex attraction.

Stonewall statement explicitly advocates that corrective heterosexual sex is ok, if its a lesbian and a transwomen without a jot of irony.

Stonewall are not denying that transwomen are being rejected by lesbians. They are saying we know its happening but the lesbians should put up with it.

Stonewall aren't trying to say the survey is flawed. The opposite. They are saying we know this is happening but we dont care and lesbians should put up, put out and shut up. They are saying we don't like it being quantified because that puts a measure on how far this toxic culture pervades the community of TRAs and their allies and the level to which women are being subjected to abuse.

Thats the thing with quantification. It has the power of legitimacy. Thats why the survey is being attacked. Not because there isn't a problem. But precisely because there is one and there are people who dont want to address it.

LonginesPrime · 26/10/2021 22:18

Hopefully people will start to look a bit more closely at Stonewall's glossary of terms now. But just for convenience, I'll leave a few here:

Homosexual
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

Lesbian
Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Gay
Refers to a man who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards men. Also a generic term for lesbian and gay sexuality - some women define themselves as gay rather than lesbian. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Transphobia
The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it.

They tie themselves in knots trying to skirt over what they actually mean by lesbian (we all know what they mean by "woman"), and they don't even acknowledge same-sex attraction anymore, which was the whole point of their existence for the first 25 years of their work.

Then, they define 'refusing to accept someone's gender identity' as actual transphobia, so Stonewall's own glossary states that homosexuals as defined in the Equality Act are transphobic by definition.

It's easy to see how we got into this mess with Stonewall's unfettered power across the city, but man alive, this is insane.

Lovealovestory · 26/10/2021 22:20

Harrowing read but huge step forward. Well done BBC, for once!

DuckDuckNo · 26/10/2021 22:21

Those of you here who keep repeating "this never happens", why are you ignoring that Stonewall statement in the article?

foxgoosefinch · 26/10/2021 22:24

I have to agree with this. I'm a lesbian, out every weekend on the scene with large groups of lesbians, yes some of them are translesbians but I'd estimate that at about 2-5% of all the lesbians present where I am anyway.

Where is this lesbian scene with large groups of lesbians suggestions? I only ask for those of us who would be delighted to find it!

SteakExpectations · 26/10/2021 22:24

I think the response this article has received shows exactly why only 80 lesbians wished to share details of their experiences of sex, dating and relationships with TW.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 22:25

Where is this lesbian scene with large groups of lesbians suggestions? I only ask for those of us who would be delighted to find it!

Yeah, I'd like to know too....