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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC article about cotton ceiling

999 replies

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 26/10/2021 09:54

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

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Gmom · 26/10/2021 21:20

@OldCrone My point was that TRAs should not be above criticism even if trans people are marginalised and oppressed but that the alleged 500 complaints to BBC will just focus on how they are marginalised they are. I expect BBC will be bullied into an apology given how mysteriously powerful TRAs are.

I strongly believe people should have a right to chose which sort of genitals one would like their sex partner to have without being accused of any phobias or prejudice or reductiveness.

OvaHere · 26/10/2021 21:22

Great post @CharlieParley

This is a good article that highlights problems related to online spaces for lesbians and gay men that have been eroded into non existence.

Being denied freedom of association is a massive problem for a minority group who already have a smaller dating pool not to mention the difficulty in organising politically.

suedonym.substack.com/p/the-one-thing-you-cant-discuss-on

OldCrone · 26/10/2021 21:22

That's the story. SW thinks genital preferences are transphobic.

Yes. It's not just about whether transwomen are expecting lesbians to have sex with them, although it is obviously true that some are, from the small survey and the personal testimonies (unless none of those males are really trans - how can we tell?).

It's also about whether lesbians are transphobic for not wanting to have sex with people with penises.

Stonewall says that it's transphobic to have a sexual orientation.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 26/10/2021 21:23

All it took to convince the IOC to change women’s sport to mixed sex sport was research carried out on 7 transwomen yet the testimonies of 80 women subjected to sexual coercion are not enough to be believed?
Fucking hell.
I really don’t like this world anymore. Women’s lives mean so little. It’s so fucking depressing.

TatianaBis · 26/10/2021 21:23

Men pressuring women into sex is hardly a new story, this is just a 21c variant.

It would be more remarkable if no transwoman had ever pressured a woman into sex than if they had.

Sn0tnose · 26/10/2021 21:24

It’s not. And outside of a core of trans activists on SM no-one in RL in the queer world thinks it is. Another lesbian here saying it’s bullshit, and the supposed cotton ceiling is a made up BS Term that activists on both sides like to scream about but which isn’t a thing in the real world for us queers

I’m not a lesbian so, you know, what do I know, but there are an awful lot of transwomen and their followers making an awful lot of noise about being rejected because of ‘transphobic genital preferences’ for something that never happens. Do international lobby groups tend to respond to things that aren’t real? Wouldn’t that be like the RSPCA responding to reports of cruelty to unicorns?

Waitwhat23 · 26/10/2021 21:25

There's a fair amount of evidence on this thread regarding the 'cotton ceiling', both anecdotal evidence from posters who have experienced it and also from tweets and articles by people who advocate for it - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

I've also sent a compliment to the BBC - it's more eloquent than the 'suck my dick' complaints they'll be currently getting so hopefully a nice change.

BloodinGutters · 26/10/2021 21:26

[quote Gmom]@OldCrone My point was that TRAs should not be above criticism even if trans people are marginalised and oppressed but that the alleged 500 complaints to BBC will just focus on how they are marginalised they are. I expect BBC will be bullied into an apology given how mysteriously powerful TRAs are.

I strongly believe people should have a right to chose which sort of genitals one would like their sex partner to have without being accused of any phobias or prejudice or reductiveness. [/quote]
Again tw are not oppressed by any stretch of the imagination and they are most definitely not marginalised at stonewall and wherever stonewall influences. The lgb are again marginalised by stonewall though.

SweetGrapes · 26/10/2021 21:28

The bit that I never understood (well, I can really) is why all these transbians can't sleep with each other? If they are women and lesbians then that should be fine.

But it's never mentioned. So the implication is that the TW can have 'genital preferences' but natal women can't?

Fuck that shit.

FindTheTruth · 26/10/2021 21:30

2016 - 2017 Magdalene on the 'cotton ceiling'

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2021 21:31

You can believe that the women interviewed, the transwomen interviewed and the survey is nothing but lies and made up nonsense.

However:
But the other element of the article is the various examples of the whole thinking around the cotton ceiling from various activists, and from SW itself. And that is not something that can be backed away from - these people have actually supported the POV that "genital preferences" are transphobic.

That's the story. SW thinks genital preferences are transphobic.

This is actually the key point. Its happened in a culture where the institution which is supposed to look after the interests of lesbians is actively and clearly saying that lesbians should reframe their social prejudice and do dick otherwise they are transphobic.

I refer to the following paragraphs from the article:

Hearing about experiences like these led one lesbian activist to begin researching the topic. Angela C. Wild is co-founder of Get The L Out, whose members believe the rights of lesbians are being ignored by much of the current LGBT movement.

She and her fellow activists have demonstrated at Pride marches in the UK, where they have faced opposition. Pride in London accused the group of "bigotry, ignorance and hate".

"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

STONEWALL INADVERTENTLY BACKED THIS UP.

As I say, they could have given a different, more considered statement. They chose not to, and instead doubled down and reinforced why gettheLoutfelt they had to do the survey in the first place.

If Stonewall were identifying that a small number of transwomen and activists were harassing lesbians to the point that it was causing a problem and sought to resolve the issue for the good of everyone they profess to protect there wouldn't be an issue.

Instead they actively decided to take a rape apologists line and attack lesbians - arguably at the expense of many within both the lesbian and transwomen communities.

They should focus on the harassment and abusive behaviour not identity, regardless.

They don't.

And thats why there is an issue and thats why abusers feel empowered to do more and the victims are disappearing into the shadows to protect themselves because the very organisation which should be their champion has washed their hands of them and is facilitating and enabling a lot of the abuse.

And its the law abiding, vulnerable transwomen who will be the victims of any backlash because Stonewall are too short sighted to understand what they are doing is institutional level lesbophobia that acts as a trojan horse for mens sexual rights activists.

RedToothBrush · 26/10/2021 21:33

The story isnt the survey at all. Trying to draw attention and discredit the survey is a deflection tactic to draw eyes away from the real story which is institutional level lesbophobia and support for rape culture.

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 21:33

Always such a balm to see Magdalen. Fearless woman. So ahead of her time.

BloodinGutters · 26/10/2021 21:34

@SweetGrapes

The bit that I never understood (well, I can really) is why all these transbians can't sleep with each other? If they are women and lesbians then that should be fine.

But it's never mentioned. So the implication is that the TW can have 'genital preferences' but natal women can't?

Fuck that shit.

The reason they give is because it would trigger their dysphoria. They need to stick their female dick in a actual female vagina to feel they’ve truly transcended to womanhood. Being regulated to other transwoman is highly triggering for them.

Because that’s what real women are, props for the fantasy of transwomen. Or any male person who says he’s a transwoman. Like including the beaded kind who wear men’s clothing and only have boobs from beer not synthetic hormones.

CharlieParley · 26/10/2021 21:36

@logsonlogsoff

80 people on a Twitter poll Set up by someone whose followers almost certainly agree with their views isn’t good enough. This just discredits the whole article.
You clearly haven't read the article or the report produced by Get the L Out. It was not a Twitter poll.

And also, if A investigates the claim that X happens and puts out a statement saying "I believe X happens, has it happened to you?" and then receives evidence in the form of a report where 46 out of 80 people who respond say "yes, I believe X happens, because it happened to me" that does not discredit A. On the contrary, it provides evidence that X happens.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 21:37

[quote FindTheTruth]2016 - 2017 Magdalene on the 'cotton ceiling'

[/quote] It's so helpful that Riley Dennis' now deleted video still exists within Magdalene's commentary (2nd one).
RepentMotherfucker · 26/10/2021 21:43

But... Nancy isn't even denying it.

We don't need to debate whether the data is unsound because it is qualitative or self selecting or the data set is small.

Nancy said it! It's transphobic to be a lesbian. And to not want to have sex with fat people is also an issue apparently.

I have never fancied anyone short so I am fully expecting to be up against the wall when the revolution comes. Some of my best friends are short though. Will that help?

logsonlogsoff · 26/10/2021 21:52
  1. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
Blackandwhitehorse · 26/10/2021 21:53

From a so called feminist page

BBC article about cotton ceiling
DuckDuckNo · 26/10/2021 21:54

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
Maybe some reading comprehension practice...?
lateforschool · 26/10/2021 21:55

The phrase ‘cotton ceiling’ is loathesome - breaking through the glass ceiling / breaking through the cotton ceiling - literally smashing through someone’s underwear to get into the knickers. It couldn’t sound more like coercion or rape.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/10/2021 21:56

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
If you're going to write ill-informed critique of matters that showcase that you didn't have the courtesy to read the primary material, there's little that can feasibly be done to assist you.

Nonetheless, I'd still expect you to make a better fist of caring about the denominator. Hint: it's not the "whole lesbian population of the UK".

I realise it's in vain but I would ask commenters to read the primary source material that they're affecting to understand and critique.

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 21:56

@logsonlogsoff

80. Out of the whole Lesbian population of the U.K. I don’t agree with a lot that trans activists and even Stonewall say, but a survey of 50/60% of 80 women isn’t enough. I can give you that number right now who say they’ve never experience it and don’t think that it’s an issue in RL.
isn't enough

Isn't enough? For fucking what? How many women do you require to be traumatised for you to acknowledge that this happens?

Sn0tnose · 26/10/2021 21:57

Riley J Dennis’ girlfriend also did a similar video which was responded to by an American woman in a black leather jacket, short dark hair, put me in mind of a young Winona Ryder. It popped up around Magdalen’s videos, although I haven’t seen it for a while. Lots of comparisons to racism, ableism and not fancying fat people from the girlfriend. Lots of stunned jaw dropping from the responder.

ArabellaScott · 26/10/2021 21:57

I apologise for swearing. I find it absolutely unacceptable to say 'there aren't enough women complaining about being coerced'.

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