BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

I'm amazed and pleased that the BBC has written such a long and honest article about this subject.

If lesbians really are being pressured into sex by 'a sizeable minority of transwomen' 'as well as activists who are not necessarily trans themselves', then it's a story in the public interest and it should be out there. I understand fears on the TRA side that it will be used to stigmatise trans people, but that's like saying women can't talk about sexual abuse by men because it will stigmatise all men. Sometimes you have to speak out because you have to name the problem before you can solve it.

And what proportion of lesbians experiencing coercion is 'enough'? What is the magic number? How many lesbians experiencing and reporting this would it take for you to take it seriously?

Do you apply this requirement for a certain proportion of a population experiencing it to other women's reports of abuse/harassment/coercion/rape? Or is it only lesbians?

that's like saying women can't talk about sexual abuse by men because it will stigmatise all men.

It's 100% like that.

I don't think trans or non-trans status is an influential variable/ contributing factor to poor behaviour.

I agree and I think most of us agree and have repeatedly said this when accused of basing anything on someone's "trans status".
It is not whether someone is trans that is relevant to whether they are a higher risk of coercing, violence, or rape.

It is another factor that apparently disappears when someone internally realises what gender they are.

A translesbian is a male attracted to females, which is not a lesbian of any kind. The term is just ludicrous.

@LonginesPrime

Hopefully people will start to look a bit more closely at Stonewall's glossary of terms now. But just for convenience, I'll leave a few here:

Homosexual
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

Lesbian
Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Gay
Refers to a man who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards men. Also a generic term for lesbian and gay sexuality - some women define themselves as gay rather than lesbian. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.

Transphobia
The fear or dislike of someone based on the fact they are trans, including denying their gender identity or refusing to accept it.

They tie themselves in knots trying to skirt over what they actually mean by lesbian (we all know what they mean by "woman"), and they don't even acknowledge same-sex attraction anymore, which was the whole point of their existence for the first 25 years of their work.

Then, they define 'refusing to accept someone's gender identity' as actual transphobia, so Stonewall's own glossary states that homosexuals as defined in the Equality Act are transphobic by definition.

It's easy to see how we got into this mess with Stonewall's unfettered power across the city, but man alive, this is insane.

Stonewall do not recognise homosexuality anymore.

They only recognise homogenderism and heterogenderism.

This is kind of important to homosexuals. Because homogenderism conflicts with homosexuality directly and removes protection for homosexuals who are same-sex attracted.

Its homophobic.

Milli hill had her post about the bbc piece removed of Instagram for hate

The bbc. Hate speech Them big tech companies

@EsmaCannonball

A translesbian is a male attracted to females, which is not a lesbian of any kind. The term is just ludicrous.

It could also be a male attracted to other males, couldn't it?

I have to agree with this. I'm a lesbian, out every weekend on the scene with large groups of lesbians, yes some of them are translesbians but I'd estimate that at about 2-5% of all the lesbians present where I am anyway.

Calling males a translesbian is exactly what we are talking about.

Who is their target dating pool? It has to be lesbians.

Lesbians are women who are same-sex attracted. The word lesbian has already been taken. It does not belong to males.

@RedToothBrush Stonewall statement explicitly advocates that corrective heterosexual sex is ok, if its a lesbian and a transwomen without a jot of irony

Yes. This is conversion therapy. And Stonewall is advocating it.

Despicable.

@DuckDuckNo

Those of you here who keep repeating "this never happens", why are you ignoring that Stonewall statement in the article?

Is this the Stonewall statement being referred to? _________ "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

"We know that prejudice is still common in the LGBT+ community, and it's important that we can talk about that openly and honestly."

So they are very clear that "Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to."

So how we all operate as individuals is up to us - there should be no pressure to date anyone you're not interested in.

But if you're making a blanket judgement about a group of people it may be worth considering if societal prejudices are at work. So - you can consider it, weigh it up and say 'Well that was interesting to think about, but actually I don't feel societal prejudices are at work at all, I just have my own preferences, which I'm entitled to, end-of.'

And you're sorted.

It doesn't conflict with the first statement that nobody should feel pressured, it's simply asking people to think about what the larger social picture can be, and how it can influence us, and then you can discount its relevance to you as you see fit.

There are of course lesbians happily dating trans lesbians, I am friends with a couple. Not that this article will make life very pleasant for them now, but there you go.

There are of course lesbians happily dating trans lesbians, I am friends with a couple. Not that this article will make life very pleasant for them now, but there you go.

That's lovely for them, I'm glad they're happy but that is a heterosexual relationship because there's no such thing as a male lesbian.

Why would this article make things unpleasant for your friends, suggestionsplease? Did one of them coerce the other into sex? Probably not, right, since NO ONE is saying that all transwomen coerce lesbians.

Again, just because most men don't actually rape women doesn't mean that we shouldn't openly discuss the minority of men who do.

"I have friends in heterosexual relationships, oh it's going to make their lives so difficult since the media ran a piece on some heterosexual men raping women" FFS

Finn. Ffs

Also you didn't answer the question directed at you about why you're so invested in discounting the experiences of women who were coerced and raped.

What's the number of victims required to make their experiences valid to you?

Yeah women better shut up about being raped because otherwise it makes life unpleasant for others

There are of course lesbians happily dating trans lesbians, I am friends with a couple. Not that this article will make life very pleasant for them now, but there you go.

Nope. There's no such thing as a male lesbian. A woman dating a man is in a heterosexual relationship.

The word lesbian is taken. What don't you understand about that?

It's a protected characteristic in law.

Don't be disingenuous, suggestionsplease1. The group exclusively same-sex attracted females are making a blanket judgement about by rejecting them as potential partners are all male people. That's what the whole article is about: blanket rejection of all members of the male sex class as sexual or romantic partners, no matter what. And the hostility they receive in response is what Stonewall was asked to comment on.

In what way is it okay for Stonewall to suggest that such exclusively same-sex attracted females ought to reconsider their judgement in light of the wider social picture?

But if you're making a blanket judgement about a group of people it may be worth considering if societal prejudices are at work.

You repeating what the BBC article is saying, is not really doing anything to refute it. I hope you realise that!

Sexual orientation makes a blanket judgement based on sex.

Lesbians discriminate against every man on the planet. I discriminate against every woman on the planet.

It's a blanket judgement because it's a sexual orientation. It's not a sexual preference.

Bloody hell. Gay men and women have spent the best part of 60 or 70 years trying to legitimise homosexuality.

And here you are, trying to undo it.

@littlbrowndog

Finn. Ffs

Bloody hell! Yes women are getting raped, but it's not helpful to acknowledge it in case they go after the rapists??

Am I reading that right?

@littlbrowndog

Finn. Ffs

Well, at least we won't have to work too hard to demonstrate that Finn is no friend to women the next time Finn writes an article that purports to support radical feminism.

I'm no longer astonished that these learned women don't see what's wrong with that attitude. I was brainwashed as a kid. You cannot see it for the longest time. And then, when your critical thinking skills wake up, you know you cannot say it. (Although maybe I'm too generous here because I don't want to think they all know this is despicable but have decided to prioritise males.)

On re-reading that article for the third time today, I find this bit of the stonewall statement really problematic:

it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions

Nobody can control who they are attracted to. Sexual orientation is due to nature rather than nurture. Nothing in my past “turned” me away from being straight or caused me to be attracted to women. I was not damaged or persuaded by society to like women. I was literally born this way.

Stonewall are now openly advocating of a form of conversion therapy. “Examine your prejudices and see if maybe with a bit of effort you can learn to like penises”. Fuck off.

The statement simply reinforces exactly what the lesbians in the article are reporting.

It doesn't conflict with the first statement that nobody should feel pressured, it's simply asking people to think about what the larger social picture can be, and how it can influence us, and then you can discount its relevance to you as you see fit.

Hang on - so Stonewall changes the definition of lesbian and tells me my sexual orientation doesn't exist any more, but because they say "well, do whatever makes you comfortable", I should be fine with the fact they're suggesting my sexual orientation is merely misguided?

@CousinKrispy

Why would this article make things unpleasant for your friends, suggestionsplease? Did one of them coerce the other into sex? Probably not, right, since NO ONE is saying that all transwomen coerce lesbians.

Again, just because most men don't actually rape women doesn't mean that we shouldn't openly discuss the minority of men who do.

"I have friends in heterosexual relationships, oh it's going to make their lives so difficult since the media ran a piece on some heterosexual men raping women" FFS

Men aren't an extreme minority group facing large amounts or prejudice and discrimination already, it's not really a very good parallel.

When articles which focus on vulnerable minority groups, which many people don't have much direct prolonged contact with, pair up that social group with a particular association, that more readily becomes a focal point and a stereotype for that particular group, due to the larger lack of public knowledge about them.

It's like a person from a majority ethnic group, or religious group, or sexuality group in a country where other ethnicities, religions, sexualities are not well known about, reading an article or book about these kind of exotic, unfamiliar people and then pairing in their minds the salient information they read- because that's all they presently have access to. They get the 'single story' they read, and oblivious to the rich, complex story that actually exists for the social groups that have no direct contact with.

So if those stories highlight something positive about that ethnicity, religion, sexuality, the reader is more inclined to hold that positive stereotype in their mind and use it as a framework for considering future interactions, should they be in a position to actually meet someone from that demographic in the future.

Conversely if a negative feature becomes salient and used as a benchmark for considering future interactions.

So that is a difficulty for an already marginalised, vulnerable group which many people in the general public don't actually have extensive interactions with to from their own opinions.

This article will make this association salient in the minds of the public to a much greater degree that an article on men and rape.

it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions

But I'm not transphobic - I'm absolutely fine with dating transmen and have dated several.