DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

Point out that as a lesbian her genital preferences are transphobic?

In all seriousness, the best thing you can do is keep channels of communication open as far as possible. In some ways it is similar to being in a cult and some of the same advice in how to deal with may be useful e.g. theconversation.com/how-to-talk-someone-out-of-a-damaging-cult-68930

Ask the really difficult (uncomfortable ) questions, with difficult (uncomfortable) images to accompany them if possible.

Some ideas here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4168284-Staniland-Question-is-so-good-Can-we-think-of-others

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Tell her to read some proper feminism - second wave feminism was “intersectional” anyway and liberal feminists now just wave the term around as a buzzword without fully understanding it. She needs to read some feminist classics - bell hooks, Adrienne Rich, Angela Davies etc!

Good advice re same techniques as cult members.

You could try asking her how she came by her opinions. If she listened to other people telling her what to think, how does she know they are right and you are wrong? I'd be telling her debate is healthy and normal and any belief system that bans debating and questions is pretty suspect.

If she'd listen that far, tell her you'd love her to educate you and explain her reasoning for her views any time, but you're allowed to ask questions and make points too. Otherwise how can you learn?

And also don't be ashamed or apologise. You've (probably, if you're GC) arrived at your views through thought, reasoning and experience. She hasn't.

[quote ItsAllGoingToBeFine]Point out that as a lesbian her genital preferences are transphobic?

In all seriousness, the best thing you can do is keep channels of communication open as far as possible. In some ways it is similar to being in a cult and some of the same advice in how to deal with may be useful e.g. theconversation.com/how-to-talk-someone-out-of-a-damaging-cult-68930[/quote]
I agree with looking at how to talk to someone in the grip of an ideology.

Leaving that ideology does represent a social death because it's part of someone's social identity. It's unbelievably difficult to acknowledge that to oneself and moving away from it will rarely be a linear process.

Good advice MrsMadderRose.

Ask her to educate you.

If you have got the patience for it definitely ask her to explain what she thinks a woman is, what "transwomen" and women have in common that men and women don't also have in common.

Just ask her to explain as much as she can. Then let her think about it.

Then ask about gender stereotypes and whether gender identity ideology reinforces these or breaks them.

Ask about sexuality, whether a non-binary person can be lesbian or is that only for people who identify as women?

Just keep getting her to explain.

If she listened to other people telling her what to think, how does she know they are right and you are wrong? I'd be telling her debate is healthy and normal and any belief system that bans debating and questions is pretty suspect.

This is what I did with DD. I asked her also who gets to decide what is right or wrong? Would she be happy for Boris Johnson to decide next week that he is always right and he won’t allow any debate about anything whilst he’s PM? If not why not?

I refuse to talk to my (properly adult) dd about this now. Our views are very different.

For myself, no reflection on dd, I think the world has gone mad and people are being very stupid. As Robert Winston clearly stated, 'You can not change sex.' I bitterly resent being told by men (and handmaids) that I have to accept that some men are women. What is that except more oppression of women by men?

I love my dd, I want to remain in contact with her, I stay quiet when I'm around her. But I can't share the opinions she holds.

Some excerpts from FPFW which might help...

Transwomen are women! Transmen are men!

It sounds progressive, it sounds kind, it sounds simple, it sounds harmless.

Surely only transphobes and bigots would disagree.

At first, I’m sure the phrase “transwomen are women” was motivated by a kindness to make a few people with gender dysphoria feel better.

It is now a political demand that trans women must be considered literally female, indistinguishable from females and their birth sex kept a secret, that their male bodies are in fact female bodies. That their penis is a female sex organ.

That demand impacts us all.

Because when words like ‘woman’ and ‘female’ get expanded to include the male sex it has real life consequences:

fairplayforwomen.com/dear-politicians/

I’d also remind DD that a judge ruled “T*f” was a derogatory term, used to silence women in the same way as other misogynistic terms. Ask her if she’d call you a bch, whe etc, if not, why would she call you a T*f?

Ask her if she supports this

Terf is used to silence women

Then you can call for violence against the terf

Cos we are not humans.

Tell her to let you know when she has sex with someone with a dick.

@LizzieSiddal

I’d also remind DD that a judge ruled “T*f” was a derogatory term, used to silence women in the same way as other misogynistic terms. Ask her if she’d call you a bch, whe etc, if not, why would she call you a T*f?

I made it very clear that it wasn’t a term I expected to hear repeated!

Honestly I’d just laugh.

Ask her what a t**f is.

Once she's told you that, then tackle the letters. What does she think you exclude trans people from? Then discuss that.

Since she is a lesbian and believes that TWAW, ask her if she would be happy to sleep with a transwoman. If yes, she is not a lesbian but is bisexual; if no she is transphobic.

If your DD were to genuinely listen to your argument and take on board its logic, I imagine that would make things very difficult for her back at uni. If she's a lesbian, then most of her friendship group probably centres on LGBQT+ culture.

You are likely not going to persuade her to adopt (or even to rationally consider) a stance that would get her ostracised by her peers. That would be the motivator for her leaving the room when you defended Rowling: she's afraid she might hear something 'Terfy' that she agrees with, and she understands implicitly that the social consequences would be dire if she were suspected of harbouring 'TERF' sympathies.

To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, it is difficult to get a young woman to understand something, when her friendships depend upon her not understanding it.

The best you can hope for I think is to drop little shards of logic here and there. She will no doubt disavow them now, but likely some will stick in her mind and help her to navigate the path ahead. As she grows older and away from uni friends, she may well rethink the whole issue on her own.

I agree with Donkey - any conversations at this point need to be low-key and not allowed to fracture your relationship.

Tell her to let you know when she has sex with someone with a dick.

I know that I'm typically a fan of context and nuance but I can think of almost no circumstances under which I wouldn't consider that an aggressively invasive question that was asked in bad faith.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Ask her what a t**f is.

Once she's told you that, then tackle the letters. What does she think you exclude trans people from? Then discuss that.

This is perhaps the best advice I've heard on dealing with the word TERF. Thank you!

"I stand up for lesbians to live free happy lives free from discrimination for which I'm called a T**F. women, especially young women like you my daughter, face dual discrimination in a male dominated society. I stand up for your rights even if you don't want me to. Lets agree to disagree but if we do discuss this keep it factual and not hyperbolic.'

@DoesHePlayTheFiddle

I refuse to talk to my (properly adult) dd about this now. Our views are very different.

For myself, no reflection on dd, I think the world has gone mad and people are being very stupid. As Robert Winston clearly stated, 'You can not change sex.' I bitterly resent being told by men (and handmaids) that I have to accept that some men are women. What is that except more oppression of women by men?

I love my dd, I want to remain in contact with her, I stay quiet when I'm around her. But I can't share the opinions she holds.

Exactly this. And although there are risks for me working in VAWG, I’m nearer the end of my career and have a house security etc. If my dds shared my views their careers would be utterly derailed and they’d lose their friends. Along with my dds I have a couple of close younger work friends. We just don’t talk about it.

I would treat it the way you would if she came home spouting racist, antisemitic, homophobic, etc., slurs. She can hold whatever beliefs she wants but you are perfectly reasonable to forbid misgynistic abuse and rape apologism in your own house. terfisaslur.com

Has she met any trans people? I mean someone who has fully transitioned and been through the aftermath and carried on living life. That was an eye-opener for me, to discover how post-op trans people feel about being told that self-ID'd transwomen are women and transmen are men simply by saying so, when they know they themselves have not changed and cannot change sex despite massive efforts and in fact had to come to terms with this in order to proceed with surgery.