DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

If I were in your position, I'd struggle most with the discussion / debate being shut down.

Increasingly, I'm seeing that some people (young people, but obviously not all) are shutting down discussions where people have a different opinion to them.

You are likely not going to persuade her to adopt (or even to rationally consider) a stance that would get her ostracised by her peers. That would be the motivator for her leaving the room when you defended Rowling: she's afraid she might hear something 'Terfy' that she agrees with, and she understands implicitly that the social consequences would be dire if she were suspected of harbouring 'TERF' sympathies.

This is all true, but I think a change is coming and eventually there may be a backlash against the ideology. Already the "queer"-obsessed puritan thought police are seen as silly by plenty of other people, even in schools, and the more they reveal of themselves and what they think is OK treatment of women and infidels, the more people are questioning it all.

So I aim above all to get my DC to understand that different views are allowed, and that arriving at your views through thought and debate is better than being told what to think and being bullied into parroting it. They don't have to agree with me but that way they understand that it's OK to question yours and others' views and come to your own conclusions.

Both my adult DDs (36 and 40) have called me a TERF. It's their problem, not mine. We no longer talk about the subject. There is no point because we will never change our POVs. You have my sympathy OP but I have no advice, sorry.

I'd play "confused ignorant mum" and print the JKR statement off.

Take it to her and ask her to "mark" it and show you where its so wrong.

That hopefully will open up a debate. It being non-verbal could also keep the heat out of it.

I wouldn't press too hard though.

God how tedious
Mine is only sixteen and I despair already sometimes because she thinks I've lived in a cupboard all my life.
Very tedious you have my sympathy.
And I was looking forward to mine coming home from uni but I'm not so sure hearing this...

@equuscaballus

I'd play "confused ignorant mum" and print the JKR statement off.

Take it to her and ask her to "mark" it and show you where its so wrong.

That hopefully will open up a debate. It being non-verbal could also keep the heat out of it.

I wouldn't press too hard though.

That's an idea Might try that.

@SillyStrings423

"the possibility of being GC without being transphobic" There is none. Being GC is a an euphemism for being transphobic. It's like trying to be a "race realist without being racist".

"Point out that as a lesbian her genital preferences are transphobic?"
"Ask her if she would be happy to sleep with a transwoman. If yes, she is not a lesbian but is bisexual"
"I’d also remind DD that a judge ruled “T**F” was a derogatory term, used to silence women"
Yeah, she's definitely never heard any of that nonsense before. It definitely isn't going to just make her roll her eyes.

And Most Fatuous Post of the Thread goes to: @SillyStrings423. Good thing your post didn't make anyone roll their eyes at its nonsense.

I would be tempted to ask her whether transwomen who ask gender critical females to suck their girl dick are literal women.

@334bu

Good advice MrsMadderRose.

Ask her to educate you.

Go for this.

Ask questions, calmly. Ask for evidence, reasoning. Don't try to 'win'.

I would above all just avoid letting this issue damage your relationship. In fact, I'd honestly probably avoid it if it's going to get into arguments, and work on maintaining a happy, healthy communicative relationship with your DD.

SillyStrings

"the possibility of being GC without being transphobic"
There is none. Being GC is a an euphemism for being transphobic. It's like trying to be a "race realist without being racist".

GC means gender-critical, i.e. able/willing to question and dismantle the idea of prescribed gender stereotypes, especially as this relates to stereotyped expectations placed on girls. Why is that transphobic?
(Gender-critical does not mean "critical of transgender people" BTW)

"Point out that as a lesbian her genital preferences are transphobic?"
Yeah, she's definitely never heard any of that nonsense before. It definitely isn't going to just make her roll her eyes.

You're saying this is tired old GC nonsense that she'll roll her eyes at? But I thought this was the genderist position - that gay people should only be attracted to others on the basis of gender and not sex? Is that not true now? Is it OK to be same-sex attracted now? Please update.

OP, if any DD of mine called me a “bloody terf” I’d slap her face for her. I’m shocked that you tolerate such disrespect and contempt from your child. Is she staying in your house? Are you paying her uni fees? Who the hell does she think she is talking to?
I would tell her to google “cotton ceiling” and read the harrowing testimony of a young lesbian bullied into sex with a penis wielding transwoman. Ask her if she approves of rapist Karen White being allowed to sexually assault women in a female prison. And bet her £100 she can’t find a single transphobic line in JKR’s statement. Then demand an apology.

@equuscaballus

I'd play "confused ignorant mum" and print the JKR statement off.

Take it to her and ask her to "mark" it and show you where its so wrong.

That hopefully will open up a debate. It being non-verbal could also keep the heat out of it.

I wouldn't press too hard though.

That's easy, it's the way her tweet falsely claimed that Maya Forstarter was "only saying that sex is real", or the way her statement basically amounted to the equivalent of "I'm okay with gays transgenders as long as they keep it in their bedrooms and don't get too uppity about their rights".

@MrsMadderRose
"(Gender-critical does not mean "critical of transgender people" BTW)"
It effectively does. At this point "gender ideology" is defined as trans people existing, and pretty much nothing else.
And I know you intend to deny this. That's what makes it an euphemism.

@SillyStrings423

Please re-read it again thoroughly (in full)
You seemed have jumped to conclusions and are reading between lines that aren't there.

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"(Gender-critical does not mean "critical of transgender people" BTW)"
It effectively does. At this point "gender ideology" is defined as trans people existing, and pretty much nothing else.
And I know you intend to deny this. That's what makes it an euphemism.[/quote]
I see that @SillyStrings423 is determined to make another baseless, inane idiotic post. OTOH, at least their posts are consistent in their utter stupidity.

Your DD isn’t a feminist if she believes TWAW, feminism centres women not biological males.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant
Explain to me, why is 99% of "gender critical" activism fixated on complaining about transgender people specifically?

GC ppl believe that men can present in anyway they want & that the breaking of masculine gender stereotypes by for example wearing dresses or make up is a very good thing. Men are adult human males but should not be shoe horned into gendered behaviour or presentation

What we don’t believe is that presenting in a stereotypical feminine way makes a man a woman

That's funny, I could swear I've seen many, many GC people label the mere act of dressing feminine as "womanface" or "male perversion".

Almost like the part where you claim to be fine with gender non-conformity is a lie.

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"(Gender-critical does not mean "critical of transgender people" BTW)"
It effectively does. At this point "gender ideology" is defined as trans people existing, and pretty much nothing else.
And I know you intend to deny this. That's what makes it an euphemism.[/quote]
Gender ideology is a euphemism for regressive sex role stereotypes are awesome.

[quote SillyStrings423]@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant
Explain to me, why is 99% of "gender critical" activism fixated on complaining about transgender people specifically?[/quote]
@SillyStrings423, why are 100% of your posts so idiotic?

@SauvignonBlanche

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

Don't debate. Ask her what book she recommends to "educate yourself" and read it (if you have the time). Talk about other things - I am sure there are lots of interesting things that are happening in her life. Do not ask her all the penis stuff suggested here, unless you never want to talk with her again.

Explain to me, why is 99% of "gender critical" activism fixated on complaining about transgender people specifically?

It isn’t. It’s fixated on keeping our sex based rights which are enshrined in law. And the people pushing the ideology which demolishes womens rights, are not usually trans at all.

@BloodinGutters
What's so regressive about people not being constrained by the gender identities they were assigned at birth?
And before you say some nonsense about dresses, plenty trans women wear pants. Gender identity is not dictated or constrained by clothing or biology.