DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

No as homosexuality is defined as same sex attraction.

Honestly can’t believe we have to waste time explaining this to people.

"It's a boy" - it's a male child who will develop into an adult male (man).

It's society that attached the role of masculine gender expectations onto the word "male" and by extension "boy/man".

How can their gender identity be " female" ? The word female refers to a particular sex class as in the female of the species. Their gender identity is " woman" surely, as you have already stated that the words woman and man refer to a social construct. So these people are attracted to people who share the same sex as each other and also share a gender identity. However, the word lesbian refers to a sexual orientation and not a gender orientation, therefore in the case of transwomen attracted to other transwomen they cannot be lesbians as both partners are male.

I'm sorry your daughter has been sucked into all this OP, I grew up around GNC women like your daughter. Its just really sad that what was once the inspiration for my feminism now feels a desperate need to centre men.

I think just keep the lines of communication open, even if it means discussing everything else but this. Your relationship is the most important thing, as she grows and sees how the world really is her opinion may change.

I'm sorry your thread has been derailed in such an odd way, and I'm sorry I participated in it.

I don't know how many children you've given birth to, or been present for the birth of, @SillyStrings423, but no one says "it's a boy/girl" when babies are born. In many cases the sex of the baby is already known from scans or from tests like NIPT. Midwives generally confirm what is already known, and record a simple fact about the child's biology.

Society then, to a greater or lesser degree, then attempts to overlay expectations of masculinity/femininity onto that child.

It should be easy to understand, if you actually put effort into understanding how other people see things, from a perspective that differs from yours.

Alert, Alert!
The Irony meter is malfunctioning.

The act of saying "It's a boy" is assigning a gender identity. I know you don'tagree, but I have made myselfperfectly clearon this.

Mmm. In my philosophy, which I acknowledge you do not share, sex is observed, and with that observation, a plethora of sex role expectations are imposed on the child. What these expectations consist of is cultural and varies according to time and place.

I would like to understand your viewpoint better though.

The act of saying "It's a boy" is assigning a gender identity.

No it's not. It's declaring a sex.

To assign a gender identity you'd have to know that the subject would like to associate themselves with a set of limiting culturally and geographically specific sex stereotypes AND believe in gender ideology yourself AND be in a position of authority over the subject.

"it's a boy" is purely a less clinical way of saying "it's male." 🙄

"I do worry as the mother of a young lesbian woman that her rights and protection are being eroded by her own beliefs but that the TWAW mantra is endemic in her circles."

Has she heard of the cotton ceiling? see lesbian erasure
fairplayforwomen.com/lesbian-erasure/

"She plays rugby for the university, her next match could be against 15 trans women but that’s ok because TWAW. hmm"

What does she make of Fair Play For Women’s response to England Rugby’s transgender policy proposal?
fairplayforwomen.com/rfu_transgender_policy/

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Do you think an alien would not know what a social category is?

The social categories of "man" and "woman" are social constructs initiallybuilt aroundbiological sex, but not inherentlypart ofbiological sex.

It is simple enough to anyone who actually uses any of their brainpower to process what's being said.

I am sure our alien anthropologist understands the concept of social categories, hence the interest.

I am asking you to describe these social categories in particular.

And I've already told you, they are social and cultural categories built around the two predominant sex configurations.

they are social and cultural categories built around the two predominant sex configurations.

That imply what? What does "woman" mean, as a social and cultural category build around female sex configuration?

Haven’t read the full thread but I also got called a TERF by my similarly aged DD.
I said I’ll take that as a compliment.

Because their gender identity is female, and they're attracted to women, cis or trans. Their attraction to other trans women is based on them being women (no matter how much you disagree with that), not on them being "male".

It should be easy to understand, if you actually put effort into understanding how other people see things, from a perspective that differs from yours.

@SillyStrings423, your posts are remarkable for their inability to communicate ideas clearly. Humans are sexually bi-modal. "Female" refers to the class that produces large immobile gametes. "Male" is the class that produces small mobile gametes. A woman is an adult human female. A man denotes an adult human male. A lesbian is a woman who is same-sex attracted.

A transwoman is a man who 'identifies' as being a woman. Transwomen are a sub-set of men. A transwoman who is sexually attracted to women is a heterosexual male. A transwoman who is sexually attracted to men is a homosexual male.

Femininity is the gender stuff about what women (adult females) should act like/enjoy/dress like etc. 'Woman' is just the equivalent of calling a female lion a 'lioness'.

the two predominant sex configurations.

There are others? Not just male and female? What gametes do they produce, then?

You know, @SillyStrings423, you really are referring to masculinity/femininity when you insist that the words man/woman refer not to biology but to the social constructs that have arisen in relation to that biology.

@TheWeeDonkey

SillyString I know you cannot remember it but no doctor assigned an identity to you, your sex was observed, it can be observed in the womb and it doesn't change. Now you can express yourself or present yourself however you see fit, but expressing yourself in a way that may be typically associated with the opposite sex does not mean your sex is wrong. It just means you like those things, its really not that deep.

A doctor observes the sex - or a midwife in my kids' case - and then the gender identity is assigned from birth by society. Gender is a social construct but it doesn't mean that it isn't a reality. It dictates everything from the clothes the baby is bought to its eventual pay expectations and the subject it's pushed towards at school. In communities like the one I grew up in, gender determines whether the baby is circumcised or not, so very much a grim reality.

There are different ways that individuals respond to the gender they were assigned: try and dismantle the whole construct, like GC feminists, embrace it, like many, many women do, or seek to change it, so that you adopt a different subset of society than the one you were born into.

Either way, gender identity exists. At least for now.

And I've already told you, they are social and cultural categories builtaroundthe two predominant sex configurations

Of...?

The social categories of "man" and "woman" are social constructs initially built around biological sex, but not inherently part of biological sex.

Like Potholes, I would like to to clarify exactly what the social construct of being a man or woman is.

In my view, it’s being an adult human female that makes someone a woman. Or being an adult human male that makes someone a man. That’s simple.

But you haven’t explained your thought processes at all, Sillystring. What is it, exactly, that makes someone belong to the social category “woman” in your view? What are the common attributes that all “women” share? What are the qualities of “women” that set them apart from “men”?

And likewise, what are the qualities of the social category “men”?

If it’s so simple, I’m sure you can offer us a clear, straightforward explanation/definition.

@Oswina

they are social and cultural categories built around the two predominant sex configurations.

That imply what? What does "woman" mean, as a social and cultural category build around female sex configuration?

I'm sure an alien civilization would have their own history of individuals who were accepted as different gender than they were considered at birth, before their civilization had any means to medically transition.

And their own history of the early attempts to change one's sex. And quite possibly, the technology to do so practically on a whim.

This probably wouldn't actually sound new to an alien, regardless of whether they accepted the practice or not.

I told my daughter I would not discuss the matter with someone who hadn't read what was written she sneered that if it was as badly written as Harry Potter she wasn't missing much because apparently there is sooo much wrong with Harry Potter 🙄 she got rid of all her Harry Potter stuff refused to watch the films read the book have anything at all to do with it I said fair fair all the more for me

We don't discuss it at all

And I've already told you, they are social and cultural categories built around the two predominant sex configurations.

So, if I’m what I would call a woman (person with vagina and XX chromosomes), but reject the social and cultural expectations placed by our society on what I call women, and prefer to align with the social and cultural expectations placed on people with penises and XY chromosomes, does this mean I’m trans?

Yes, but people have been breaking out of, and changing, those sex-based stereotypes for centuries, without it saying anything about their sex. People do not exist on a strict gender binary where they act out strictly only female gender or strictly only male gender according to their sex. And gender stereotypes themselves change over time and are different in different places.

So how can you have a "gender identity" that doesn't match your sex? Surely that's only possible if you think it's right that the sexes should be restricted to particular gender expressions.

Also, even if someone does have a "gender identity*, why should that be taken seriously and acted on. Loads of people don't feel the age they are, wish they weren't the height they are, have cosmetic surgery that they think makes them more beautiful, etc etc not to mention the people who identify with a different race than what they are.

None of these people get to dictate to others that they have to agree with them about their "identity". It's fine to say "I feel like I'm still 19 inside" when you're 50 but no one is obliged to tell you you are actually 19. Why not the same with "gender"? Why can't some bloke say "I feel like a woman inside" and everyone just get on with their lives, instead of being bullied to agree with him and made to allow him into women's safe spaces? What is special about gender that we're supposed to take this seriously, but not all the other things?

@Blackandwhitehorse

No as homosexuality is defined as same sex attraction.

Honestly can’t believe we have to waste time explaining this to people.

I agree (and all this 'people are attracted to gender, not sex' nonsense is just hideous homophobia) but as Stonewall have taken it upon themselves to change the definition of homosexual to same gender attraction, this is why we get posters who are unashamedly homophobic calling the posters on here nasty names.