DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

@LizzieSiddal

Explain to me, why is 99% of "gender critical" activism fixated on complaining about transgender people specifically?

It isn’t. It’s fixated on keeping our sex based rights which are enshrined in law. And the people pushing the ideology which demolishes womens rights, are not usually trans at all.

How does inclusion of trans women "demolish women's rights"?

@SillyStrings423

That's funny, I could swear I've seen many, many GC people label the mere act of dressing feminine as "womanface" or "male perversion".

Almost like the part where you claim to be fine with gender non-conformity is a lie.

Dressing in the regressive, highly sexualised and superficial version of femininity that drag uses is woman face. Drag is an example of the sex role stereotypes used to oppress women, so shouldn’t be mocked as a costume.

Men wearing women’s clothes like Nicky Wire or Kurt Cobain are not mocking the means by which women are oppressed or pretending they are women. That’s fine. Any man or boy can get on & do this.

The difference isn’t hard to grasp.

It effectively does. At this point "gender ideology" is defined as trans people existing, and pretty much nothing else.
And I know you intend to deny this. That's what makes it an euphemism.

Sillystrings, can you provide an actual argument and rational points, not just make blank statements. It makes you look like you don't know why you think what you think. Why do you hold these views?

Also, could you answer my second question please? Do you think it's OK for gay people to be only same-sex-attracted, or not? Because if not, "As a lesbian her genital preferences are transphobic?" is true, according to you, isn't it?

[quote SillyStrings423]@BloodinGutters
What's so regressive about people not being constrained by the gender identities they were assigned at birth?
And before you say some nonsense about dresses, plenty trans women wear pants. Gender identity is not dictated or constrained by clothing or biology.[/quote]
No one was assigned a gender identity at birth.

Throwing off limitations of sex role socialisation is what being gender critical means.

Don’t be deliberately obtuse.

And @SillyStrings this is a UK site so I’d bloody hope they are wearing pants.

Also Sillystrings I don't understand why you and others with your views come on these threads with basically attacks on the GC position and spouting genderist mantras, if you aren't prepared to debate? Because we are, and we have the tools, such as critical thinking capacity and an understanding of logic. That is why just making baseless accusations doesn't wash.

Why don't you *explain" your beliefs in a logical way? How exactly does a man who says he is a woman instantly become a woman? Why does fitting the opposite gender stereotype to the one associated with your sex mean you aren't that sex - why not just break free of the stereotype instead?

Like PPs, I feel insulted by a man who thinks dressing up, make-up, heels etc makes him a woman.Because the things that make me a woman are not those things - they include many things a male can never experience or understand. However I am not offended if a man wants to wear all that stuff and understands he is still male - whether it's someone with dysphoria who wishes he was female, or just a man who wants to have a wider choice of what t wear - there have been and are plenty of both and many of them are GC. It is being told that I have to accept that man as a woman that's the problem - because it's not true.

Oh and the reason "gender critical" activism has a big focus on genderism is because this ideology is trying to take our rights away such as rights to single-sex spaces, and rights to be same-sex attracted without discrimination, which are currently enshrined in law and also protect transgender people in the same way. GC feminists did not make this a main focus until the recent (last 10 years or so) attempts to destroy women and same-sex-attracted people as definable groups.

@MrsMadderRose
You are the ones saying trans people's gender identities are dependant on a "stereotype". We say nothing of the sort.

Trans and cis people alike can present however they fucking want, and their gender identity is whatever they say it is. Presentation may be part of one's gender expression, but it is irrelevant to one's gender identity. Gender identity is in no way dependant on presentation.

I don't see how that is "fitting a stereotype".

If yes, she is not a lesbian but is bisexual

I'm unsure on that. If the TW is obviously male, sure. But some TW don't have a penis and do look female, so attraction towards them is to do with them looking female and not anything to do with maleness. I consider myself a straight woman and wouldn't have sex with someone with a vagina - but there are males who I assumed to be male from birth who I found attractive (because they looked male) who I then learned were genetically female, but I'm not attracted to females that look like they are female...

What's so regressive about people not being constrained by the gender identities they were assigned at birth?

No one is assigned a gender identity at birth. People have their sex observed at birth and then, to a greater or lesser degree depending on their society, family etc, are subjected to gendered expectations and treatment. GC feminists say that people should not be constrained by these gender stereotypes and expectations. So, for example, that means it's fine for a boy to play with dolls, love flowers and maybe grow up to be a fashion designer, just as fine as it is for him to be a footballer or a mechanic or a nurse or anything else. For girls, that means girls should not be required to be "girly", keep quiet and serve others' needs, wear heels, wear make up, whatever and should be scientists, pilots, engineers etc if they want to.

This is all about NOT HAVING TO CONFORM T REGRESSIVE GENDER STEREOTYPES if you hadn't noticed!

The only difference between this and transgenderism is that for some strange reason, the genderist argument is that your gender somehow is your sex! So if you're a girl who looks/acts "like a boy" then you might not be a girl and should be encouraged to be "trans" and get hormones and surgery to make you into a facsimile of a boy, while being led to believe that you are actually "a boy".

THAT is regressive gender stereotyping. Because it says if you don't fit a feminine stereotype, you can't be a girl. So you can't break out of the stereotype at all. You have to have your appearance/interests/personality labelled "boy" and then have your body damaged to try to make it match the male sex because these things are "for boys".

Can't you see that that's harmful and restrictive?

So just to be clear, any man no matter how they present can say their gender identify is female and on that basis any and all female only spaces should be open to them with no exceptions?

No thank you

The attraction I have felt towards some transmen isn't there because I'm attracted to females (I'm not), it's there because they appeared to me to be male sexed.

Ask her how she feels about natal male sex offenders identifying as women and attacking other inmates?

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
You are the ones saying trans people's gender identities are dependant on a "stereotype". We say nothing of the sort.

Trans and cis people alike can present however they fucking want, and their gender identity is whatever they say it is. Presentation may be part of one's gender expression, but it is irrelevant to one's gender identity. Gender identity is in no way dependant on presentation.

I don't see how that is "fitting a stereotype".[/quote]
Could someone please be so kind as to translate @SillyStrings423's garbled post into English for me? Thank you.

The attraction I have felt towards some transmen isn't there because I'm attracted to females (I'm not), it's there because they appeared to me to be male sexed.

Whatever!

Why can't people have whatever "gender identity" or range of gender expression they like - and still just be whatever sex they are? Gender is not sex. And as people can't actually change sex, trying to surgically or hormonally alter the body to "match" the sex of your "gender identity" is just harmful - it takes away fertility, sexual function and good health. It should only be for extreme cases of dysphoria where other treatments don't help - not for "gender identity". And as gender is not sex, why does "gender identity" mean males should be allowed in women's spaces, like prisons and refuges? It makes no sense.

@MrsMadderRose
"No one is assigned a gender identity at birth. People have their sex observed at birth"
... And then they are assigned a gender identity based on what is observed.

penis/vagina – physical characteristics, part of biological sex
boy/girl – social identities, assigned based on the observed physical characteristics, not part of biological sex.

"GC feminists say that people should not be constrained by these gender stereotypes and expectations."
Except when it comes to what they're allowed to call themselves, right? God forbid a "male" uses feminine name or pronouns.
Even though feminine name and pronouns are not a part of biology.

boy/girl – social identities, assigned based on the observed physical characteristics, not part of biological sex.

No, boy just means sexually immature human male. Man means sexually mature human male.

Do you think when you call sheep ewes and rams that you are giving them gender roles?

Attaching masculinity and femininity expectations to the words boy/girl/man/woman is the gender identity.

Woman and girl, man and boy are just what we call males and females at different times of their life.

No, that is not what boy/girl mean. If it is, then we don't have a name for sex classes, which we need.

Boy and girl describe sex. If they don't, and are social categories, then what defines them? If it's not sex, it can only be gender stereotypes.

@Oswina

The attraction I have felt towards some transmen isn't there because I'm attracted to females (I'm not), it's there because they appeared to me to be male sexed.

It’s true albeit rare that some trans people pass very well, mainly trans men. However would you still be attracted to them when you knew they were actually female? I’m a lesbian and if I had to choose between the best passing trans woman and trans man I’d choose the latter every time because I’m same sex attracted.

They are being indoctrinated in the schools and universities. It’s all part of the grand plan.

@MrsMadderRose
"So if you're a girl who looks/acts "like a boy" then you might not be a girl and should be encouraged to be "trans" and get hormones and surgery"
"Because it says if you don't fit a feminine stereotype, you can't be a girl."
That's not what any trans person is saying at all.

We are saying that trans people should be able to medically transition if they experience physical dysphoria which has NOTHING to do with behavior.

Why do you have to keep lying about what we believe?

Male includes boys and men, at different times based on age.
Female involves girls and women, at different times based on age. It's a short way to say "I saw a young female today", you just say "I saw a girl today".

Nobody is "assigned a gender identity at birth" where do people get these ideas from?

Also its becoming more and more clear to me that identifying as and being are two completely different things.

OP ask her to educate you if its so important to her, but don't be insulted by your children in you own home.

Why do you have to keep lying about what we believe - oh the irony!

@Ionsion

They are being indoctrinated in the schools and universities. It’s all part of the grand plan.

Do tell, what "grand plan" are you referring to exactly?