DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
You are the ones saying trans people's gender identities are dependant on a "stereotype". We say nothing of the sort.

Trans and cis people alike can present however they fucking want, and their gender identity is whatever they say it is. Presentation may be part of one's gender expression, but it is irrelevant to one's gender identity. Gender identity is in no way dependant on presentation.

I don't see how that is "fitting a stereotype".[/quote]
I'm fine with all of that. But what, in all this, does Gender Identity actually mean to you?

What do trans women have in common with cis women but not with any other female people, not with non-binary people, and not with men of either sex? Similarly, what do trans men have in common with cis men but not with any other male people, not with non-binary people and not with women of either sex?

And why are those things they have in common because of their gender more relevant than the things that are different because of their sex when it comes to sport, safe/private spaces, risk of committing or suffering sexual abuse, career and economic power, political representation and so on, when we have clear evidence that sex is a significant factor in all those things?

I’d literally break what JK Rowling said down into very short, individual statements,I.e.

• do you agree that women who have suffered abuse should not be housed with people who possess the physical size and genitalia to make that woman feel at further risk of abuse?
• do you agree that young girls need separate toilets at school because getting your periods is a vulnerable time in your life and you need a safe, all female space to get used to changing pads/tampons etc?
• do you agree that women should not be put at additional risk in sport by allowing people with 16 stone male bodies to tackle women?
• do you agree that women who have trained for years in their sport to achieve excellence should not be denied medals because someone who grew up with more testosterone than them and therefore can run faster/is stronger has now decided they would like to be included in the women’s category?

the frothers are always drawn to these thread aren't they? never want to come and talk about women being locked up in prisons with rapists,

funny that.

it's all theory to them innit? never want to get their hands dirty

anyway, some brilliant advice on here from some women who sound like brilliant parents. play the long game OP. try to understand the cost to your daughter if she faces up to reality. keep communication open (and don't ask the question about penises - good grief!)

is anyone else seeing the underlining as green ink?

Nobody is "assigned a gender identity at birth" where do people get these ideas from?

They are assigned gender roles though. Come out as a girl (young female) biologically, then you get assigned the feminine gender role/expectations by society.

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"No one is assigned a gender identity at birth. People have their sex observed at birth"
... And then they are assigned a gender identity based on what is observed.

penis/vagina – physical characteristics, part of biological sex
boy/girl – social identities, assigned based on the observed physical characteristics, not part of biological sex.

"GC feminists say that people should not be constrained by these gender stereotypes and expectations."
Except when it comes to what they're allowed to call themselves, right? God forbid a "male" uses feminine name or pronouns.
Even though feminine name and pronouns are not a part of biology.[/quote]
This is not too far from what we believe Sillystrings.

While anyone can express themselves however they want, in policy and law biological sex matters when biology matters, in healthcare, for safeguarding, in attraction.

That's it really! 99% of the time we are all in accord. We just want to keep our language and spaces, and minors given much more space and time before making irreversible decisions

SillyStrings should familiarise themself with Mumsnet Moderation Principles which are helpfully pinned at the top of this board. In particular

Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.
And
If you cannot accept the above principles and persistently ignore them, then I’m afraid you need to accept that Mumsnet isn’t the right place for you.

You've accused all GC posters of being transphobic.

Do better

@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

‘I can do what I want when I want because I said so and I’m the bestest and you are a big poop poo head if you say I can’t so neh neh neh neh’ about sums it up.

Apologies, I’ve said more than JK said above, please don’t take my post as a summary of her writing on the subject. It’s intended as examples of how to break it down. Then when she realised how unfair each situation is, you can talk about how giving one person rights should not adversely affect another person’s existing rights - so giving trans people rights is great, AS LONG AS it does not erode the hard-won rights of women.

Even if you deny, against all logic, that they are social categories.

They aren't. It's a biological category that encapsulates your age and sex into one word. Purely biological. The idea that women should behave femininely and fit the feminine gender role is the social part... But we don't need to attach the feminine gender role to a biological term.

the frothers are always drawn to these thread aren't they

They seem to be drawn to every thread in this topic at the moment. It reminds me of when you are building a sandcastle on the beach, and the sea starts to come in and you start frantically shovelling sand wherever it will go to prevent collapse of your beautifully constructed castle. The TRAs see the sea coming for their castle.

I think they are saying that a bearded person of the male sex can identify as a woman and we have to accept them as that. As a woman they may be lesbian or heterosexual. If the former they would expect lesbian females to include them in their dating pool and if the latter they would expect straight men to consider them as potential sexual partners. They would also expect to share communal sleeping accommodation,showers,changing rooms toilets with other women.

Being GC is a an euphemism for being transphobic

How so, sillystring?

@1Week
"While anyone can express themselves however they want, in policy and law biological sex matters when biology matters, in healthcare, for safeguarding, in attraction."
GC people seem to take grave offense to trans women calling themselves women or lesbians on their own social media profiles.
That is far from the realm of policy.

@TheWeeDonkey

Nobody is "assigned a gender identity at birth" where do people get these ideas from?

Also its becoming more and more clear to me that identifying as and being are two completely different things.

OP ask her to educate you if its so important to her, but don't be insulted by your children in you own home.

It’s the cliche ‘if you have to say it, it isn’t true’ as in if you have to argue you are original you probably aren’t, if you have to convince others you are classy you probably aren’t.

If people are something then they don’t need to identify as it.

@SillyStrings423

We are saying that trans people should be able to medically transition if they experience physical dysphoria which has NOTHING to do with behavior.

But the groups that claim to speak for trans people, like Stonewall, now say that dysphoria is not necessary to be considered trans and be accepted as your preferred gender or genders. Similarly, medical transition is not required (*).

So while your point may apply to some trans people, it's not enough to dismiss all the aspects of gender-first politics that gender critical people are concerned about.

Did you not know this?

(* and that's a good thing, we should be doing everything we can to help people live safe and happy lives in their own bodies, with medical intervention for mental distress as a very very very last resort.)

Even if you deny, against all logic, that they are social categories.

You sound very ill informed are rather confused.

Bloody hell. Should have refreshed the thread.

Poor OP

Frothy McFrotherson has made sure she's not going to get any more advice, haven't they?

[quote SillyStrings423]@BloodinGutters
What's so regressive about people not being constrained by the gender identities they were assigned at birth?
And before you say some nonsense about dresses, plenty trans women wear pants. Gender identity is not dictated or constrained by clothing or biology.[/quote]

"Gender identities are assigned at birth"?

I am confused.

So you are born male or female.

Some unseen person or ethereal being assigns a gender identity to you somewhere, your brain? Your foot? Your tied up umbilical cord? Who is this person doing the assignment?

But when you grow up and think you are born in the wrong body it means that someone did you a rude service and gave you the wrong coloured identity? Where do you put your old one? Where do you get your new one from? Can you sue the assignee? Your Mum maybe, or the mid-wife?

Someone please explain......!

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"So if you're a girl who looks/acts "like a boy" then you might not be a girl and should be encouraged to be "trans" and get hormones and surgery"
"Because it says if you don't fit a feminine stereotype, you can't be a girl."
That's not what any trans person is saying at all.

We are saying that trans people should be able to medically transition if they experience physical dysphoria which has NOTHING to do with behavior.

Why do you have to keep lying about what we believe?[/quote]
I don't know who "we" is but it's really not cool to accuse people of lying, particularly when they have done no such thing.

Just once, it would be great if we could have a TRA come on here and initiate an interesting, thought provoking conversation.

But no. We get garbled, hyperbolic nonsense and a very clear indication that they do not understand - the Equality Act, what the term GC actually means, or any of the finer points of the recent legal cases in regards to protected beliefs.

It's unbelievably tiresome.

There is no lie in the fact that you wish to keep people trapped in the social categories of "man" and "woman" against their will.

Okay, given that you see man as a social category, can you please expand on what that social category is?

Imagine that I'm an alien from the planet Zog, studying human culture with no preconceptions, and explain it to me.

[quote BloodinGutters]@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

‘I can do what I want when I want because I said so and I’m the bestest and you are a big poop poo head if you say I can’t so neh neh neh neh’ about sums it up.[/quote]
Yep. That's pretty much the measure of it. I am amused by the spittle-flecked posts of rage and the use of the royal "we".