DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

In that case, it is about racism because my parents are in France and most Muslims there are from North Africa/arabic countries.

If your parents are in France, chances are most of the Muslims there are from Africa, both north and sub-Saharan Africa so your mother isn't even conflating religion and race / ethnicity. To the best of my recollection, the only two Middle Eastern countries where the primary foreign language is French are Lebanon and Syria. For the most part, countries in that part of the world fell under British sphere of influence.

A lesbian, or anyone else for that matter, does not have to "consider as a partner" any woman she does not consider attractive.

This applies to cis and trans women alike. There are cis women a lesbian won't be attracted to, and there are trans women a lesbian won't be attracted to.

But not finding a woman attractive does not mean she's not a woman.

You've completely missed the point about lesbian erasure - it's about having our sexual orientation (based on sex, not gender) recognised as valid and worthy of protection in law.

Wanting to retain the legal recognition of my fundamental human right to openly live according to my sexual orientation without fear of persecution has absolutely nothing to do with whether I think a transwoman is pretty.

Hello!

I made a debate thread! Come, pull up a chair there! Grab a microphone!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4383563-For-the-Attention-of-Posters-in-the-bloody-terf-thread

sub-Saharan Africa so your mother isn't even conflating religion and race / ethnicity.

I think it's obvious some people conflate Muslim to mean non-white, usually Arab-looking, and attack them based on that. Whether someone individually knows they aren't an ethnicity/race is irrelevant, some people do conflate the two and use it in a racist way, as a dog whistle. When religions are predominately made up of people from certain ethnicities, racism can come into play.

All the aliens i know reproduce via parthenogenesis. Would you mind please explaining the social categories of man and woman to them, please, as they have no notion of social roles signed to sex at all (they do understand sex, but no sentient beings on their planet are dimorphic, only dumb beasts).

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Hello!

I made a debate thread! Come, pull up a chair there! Grab a microphone!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4383563-For-the-Attention-of-Posters-in-the-bloody-terf-thread[/quote]
Thank you - you caught me just before a v-e-r-y long post!

@SillyStrings423, please do come over, you won't want to hear this but I think your perspective is not that far from the GC one really! My post on the other thread explains why. I'd love to know what you think.

I guess she’s really disappointed in you and I would be too.

@ExcitedtoTry

I guess she’s really disappointed in you and I would be too.

Do you normally call people names who disappoint you, and then refuse to engage in any debate and flounce from the conversation?

In what way do you think that the OP has disappointed her daughter?

@ExcitedtoTry

I guess she’s really disappointed in you and I would be too.

My dd was initially too, very 'bad terf' with me. Until I told her I would not have her patronise me about my views just because I have a different one to her. And that I and her grandmother and her great- grandmother didn't fight sexism only to be told by young ones that sex doesn't matter. The stories about her grandmother and great grandmother made more of an impression that mine did, she now at least acknowledged sex differences matter and shouldn't be ignored. And that life is different for women than transwomen.

@Oswina

Make up your mind. Do you think trans people are bad for "conforming to stereotypes", or that they should "conform to stereotypes"?

Having a male body while saying you're a woman and a lesbian isn't breaking stereotypes. It's not a stereotype that women look like the female sex, because women are the adult category of the female sex. It would be a stereotype to say that women should wear dresses and make-up.

Quite.

It’s about breaking consent.

My DD called me a T*RF for a while, but we just kept talking, asking the old Socratic questions, and focusing on the real issues, like men in women's sport, and men in women's prisons. She plays rugby, and she currently lives with a parent and step-parent who both work in criminal justice, so she 'gets' these arguments.

She doesn't call me a T*RF anymore.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]I made a separate thread.

Sillystrings (I love the name by the way), please join me there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4383563-For-the-Attention-of-Posters-in-the-bloody-terf-thread[/quote]
Thank you @PurgatoryOfPotholes, I was genuinely seeking advice and won’t get that in a bun fight.

@ExcitedtoTry

I guess she’s really disappointed in you and I would be too.

We’ve just managed to have a fairly reasonable conversation about lesbianism and genital preferences so she’s hiding her disappointment well.

I don't think there's any need to argue with her. She's a young lesbian. If you are right, she'll be harassed by trans women and feel unsafe and edged out of her community and become gender critical, too. If not, eventually you can agree that she has a point. Until then, you can just agree to differ, both stay open minded, and stick to things you agree on and keep a good relationship going.

@ExcitedtoTry

I guess she’s really disappointed in you and I would be too.

I would be disappointed to raise a child who was unable to engage in respectful debate and to step back from their own position and privilege. Anyone who thinks this is simply an issue of bigotry is showing themselves to be hard of thinking. I respect that some people can properly hear the arguments but come to a different conclusion but to not discuss the issue suggests their objection is not actually about the issue at all but rather it's about their need to dominate and patronise.

Incidentally if someone had though things through and come to a different conclusion than mine (and most people's), I would really like it (genuinely) if they could tell us what the actual definition of woman is in their world and why they think we need spaces segregated according to gender. Really simple question. But consistent refusal to answer them.

"Sexed spaces" are inherently a social construct. There's no such thing as sex-segregated bathrooms in nature.

Sex is not a social construct, but yes 'sexed spaces is'. What's your point here? Are you saying that we could construct differently? Of course we could but to consider other options we'd need to look at the effects of sexed spaces - which is what women are asking for.

There's no such thing as sex-segregated bathrooms in nature.

No, and I guess there weren't for a lot of human history. And before we had sex-segregated toilets, and even more importantly changing rooms, hospitals and prisons, women would have been more at risk in various situations. Rape and sexual harassment of women by men is not a social construct. Their legal status yes, but not the effect on women.

Psst, please join the debate on the official debate thread. We'll leave this thread for advice for the OP.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4383563-For-the-Attention-of-Posters-in-the-bloody-terf-thread

I mean there are a lot of things that don't exist "in nature", but that doesn't automatically make them a bad idea. Vaccines, houses, cooking, shoes, etc etc

Ooops sorry Purgatory, I will and thanks for that very nice and gentle reminder :)

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

About the term “intersectional” …. Ask her has she read Kimberlé Crenshaw’s article from around 1991, and what is her knowledge of the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas case which motivated Crenshaw’s work? And what does she make of some of the racism of trans activism ?

TERF is a misogynistic slur used to shut down any discourse

TERF is a misogynistic slur used to shut down any discourse

And also a handy indicator of when it's time to turn to MN...

[quote SillyStrings423]@MrsMadderRose
"(Gender-critical does not mean "critical of transgender people" BTW)"
It effectively does. At this point "gender ideology" is defined as trans people existing, and pretty much nothing else.
And I know you intend to deny this. That's what makes it an euphemism.[/quote]
No. Really. It doesn't.

It only effectively means anything other than dismissive of the gender stereotypes that restrict the freedom of women and strengthen the grip of any patriarchal society if you close your eys, stick your fingers in your wears and bellow "NAH NAH NEE NAH NAH" so you don't have to hear gender criticial women trying to engage in a discussion with you.

And I know you won't even bother to try and deny this as you will have your eyes crewed tight shut, your wears firmly blocked to protect you against any of life's realities.

You won't even know that there is a measured and logical discussion going on all around you!