DD has just called me a bloody T*RF!

[SauvignonBlanche]

DD is home from Uni, she identifies as a feminist and a lesbian but when JK Rowling somehow came into the conversation and I said something vaguely GC she came out with the old TWAW and shut down any debate by calling me a TERF.

It’s scary how there’s no debate allowed, she just told me to educate myself on intersectional feminism but then left the room when I declined to say that JK was ‘wrong’.

Apart from telling her to FU how do you have a debate with an opinionated young person who can’t see there’s the possibility of being GC without being transphobic?

GC people seem to take grave offense to trans women calling themselves women or lesbians on their own social media profiles.

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic and is also covered by hate crime bills unlike misogyny. For a person of the male sex to call themselves a lesbian, they are implying that same sex attraction should not exist and that is utterly homophobic .

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Poor OP

Frothy McFrotherson has made sure she's not going to get any more advice, haven't they?

You are absolutely right.

Chesney I think you'll find its always the mum's fault.

DD I don't want to discuss this with you right now.

However I want you to go away and consider the following:

Have you read what JKR said? You should always read at source information that is controversial to ensure you are not getting a biased version of events.

What part of what JKR said is controversial? You need to be able to quote and to articulate why, not just repeat what others have said is wrong to put a good argument forward.

Why do you think it is acceptable to shout terf at some? Why do you think it is ok to abuse people and call anyone names in a civilised society, even if you disagree with someone? If we all shout and scream at people we disagree with, what do you think would happen?

Do you think calling me names, will help me change my views or further entrench how I feel?

Do you think an argument is a strong one if the only response you have is to resort to personal attacks rather than making the argument on a point by point basis stating your case calmly about why I should change my mind? Do you win hearts and minds by alienating people?

How and why exactly do you think women are discriminated against in the workplace?

Stonewall define homosexuality on the basis of gender not sex. This is regarded as institutionally homophobic by some. Are you ok with women who don't want to have sex with penises being abused and discriminated against? Why is this not misogynistic and homophobic?

Go away and think about these things, and then we will have a civilised adult conversation about it. And maybe you can convince me about where I am going wrong and am bigoted

Until you can, I don't think it appropriate to have conversations about this subject.

Keep being overly reasonable and don't rise to the bait. Keep asking questions and turning everything into a question back at her.

The way to break cult thinking is to get people to think for themselves. So continuely framing things back at people in the form of a question is really effective and makes people question themselves in the process whether they like it or not. Sow the seeds of doubt and work on the cracks and weaknesses of this subject.

@SauvignonBlancheOP, On this thread here we have a tiny tiny example of the abuse young women are faced with to submit to the dogma; attacking, proselytising, gas-lighting abuse, the lies, the demands and on it goes. But it's far worse for your DD - as a lesbian she faces dual discrimination. My heart breaks for young lesbians pressured to accept as sexual partners or into lesbian spaces, males who identify as women. So it's no wonder she's come back affected by all this. Women on here can answer back anonymously. Your DD will face abuse face to face if she understands and speaks up for her rights.

@334bu

*GC people seem to take grave offense to trans women calling themselves women or lesbians on their own social media profiles.*

Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic and is also covered by hate crime bills unlike misogyny. For a person of the male sex to call themselves a lesbian, they are implying that same sex attraction should not exist and that is utterly homophobic .

This is inane nonsense. Most trans lesbians literally date other trans women. How is that "homophobic"?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Poor OP

Frothy McFrotherson has made sure she's not going to get any more advice, haven't they?

It started off as helpful and informative but I have slightly lost the plot now.

I do worry as the mother of a young lesbian woman that her rights and protection are being eroded by her own beliefs but that the TWAW mantra is endemic in her circles.

She plays rugby for the university, her next match could be against 15 trans women but that’s ok because TWAW.

[quote SillyStrings423]@1Week
"While anyone can express themselves however they want, in policy and law biological sex matters when biology matters, in healthcare, for safeguarding, in attraction."
GC people seem to take grave offense to trans women calling themselves women or lesbians on their own social media profiles.
That is far from the realm of policy.[/quote]
OK. I promise I'll never negatively comment on twitter bios ever again.

Now can we keep our language, our spaces and give our kids time to grow up?

Well said Red

@AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

Since she is a lesbian and believes that TWAW, ask her if she would be happy to sleep with a transwoman. If yes, she is not a lesbian but is bisexual; if no she is transphobic.

A lesbian acquaintance was recently telling me TWAW and I was a bigot for not agreeing. She said she was quite happy to have sex with a female penis so I said you're not a lesbian then and asked are you quite happy to get pregnant by this penis? I really don't think she'd thought it through and admitted I had made valid points.

I felt sorry for her to be honest as the level of gas lighting going on is huge in certain circles. At least she was prepared to listen and I didn't have the usual TWAW no debate scenario.

This is inane nonsense. Most trans lesbians literally date other trans women. How is that "homophobic"?

So why do they call themselves lesbians when they are attracted to people of the male sex?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

There is no lie in the fact that you wish to keep people trapped in the social categories of "man" and "woman" against their will.

Okay, given that you see man as a social category, can you please expand on what that social category is?

Imagine that I'm an alien from the planet Zog, studying human culture with no preconceptions, and explain it to me.

Do you think an alien would not know what a social category is?

The social categories of "man" and "woman" are social constructs initially built around biological sex, but not inherently part of biological sex.

It is simple enough to anyone who actually uses any of their brainpower to process what's being said.

SillyString has now had 3 posts removed by MNHQ on this thread.

Do better

SillyString I know you cannot remember it but no doctor assigned an identity to you, your sex was observed, it can be observed in the womb and it doesn't change. Now you can express yourself or present yourself however you see fit, but expressing yourself in a way that may be typically associated with the opposite sex does not mean your sex is wrong. It just means you like those things, its really not that deep.

It started off as helpful and informative but I have slightly lost the plot now.

I think that's how we all feel!

Be interesting if you try to have a few calm chats with your daughter and then let us know how it goes. It might just end up with an agreement to disagree for a while.

@334bu

*This is inane nonsense. Most trans lesbians literally date other trans women. How is that "homophobic"?*

So why do they call themselves lesbians when they are attracted to people of the male sex?

Because their gender identity is female, and they're attracted to women, cis or trans. Their attraction to other trans women is based on them being women (no matter how much you disagree with that), not on them being "male".

It should be easy to understand, if you actually put effort into understanding how other people see things, from a perspective that differs from yours.

Their attraction to other trans women is based on them being women

Even if they look clearly male?

@TheWeeDonkey

SillyString I know you cannot remember it but no doctor assigned an identity to you, your sex was observed, it can be observed in the womb and it doesn't change. Now you can express yourself or present yourself however you see fit, but expressing yourself in a way that may be typically associated with the opposite sex does not mean your sex is wrong. It just means you like those things, its really not that deep.

The act of saying "It's a boy" is assigning a gender identity. I know you don't agree, but I have made myself perfectly clear on this.

If I were @SillyStrings423 I would be careful because, if I understand MN moderating rules correctly, having three posts deleted within a rolling six-week period leads to a temporary banning.

Good for them! As JKR says, Sleep with any consenting adult who'll have you.
Surely we can all agree on that

Masculinity and femininity (manhood or womanhood if you like) are social constructs, the specifics of which differ across societies and time. Man/woman are biological categories of human, which remain the same across societies and time.

@Oswina

Their attraction to other trans women is based on them being women

Even if they look clearly male?

The act of saying "It's a boy" is assigning a gender identity. I know you don't agree, but I have made myself perfectly clear on this.

Like everything else in your posts, this is nonsense. The act of saying "it's a boy" is noting the child's sex. It has nothing to do with identity or sexual orientation or presentation or any other term randomly thrown into your addled posts.

Feminine/Masculine - roles and expectations (gender) attached to the sexes

Female/Male - biological sex, encompassing all ages of development

Girl/Boy - sexually immature young females and males

Woman/Man - sexually mature/developed females and males

Do you think an alien would not know what a social category is?

The social categories of "man" and "woman" are social constructs initiallybuilt aroundbiological sex, but not inherentlypart ofbiological sex.

It is simple enough to anyone who actually uses any of their brainpower to process what's being said.

I am sure our alien anthropologist understands the concept of social categories, hence the interest.

I am asking you to describe these social categories in particular.

Sillystring, I have given birth to four children. When the midwife said they were either girls or boys, she had taken a half second look at the genitalia and from that half second look she was able to ascertain if they were boys or girls. If you think there is any more to it than that, then you are insane. Or brainwashed. Because to truly believe men are women and babies have a 'gender identity', then you have to be one or the other.