Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 16:01

And now, a male perspective, from a gay man who was roused to awareness of the current situation by two women, through discussion and debate.

extract

My Sexuality

When I came out at 14 in 1992, my father went to the doctor. Clearly, he didn’t want a gay son and the doctor thought that he could help. I received a book which suggested my sexual orientation was just a minor setback that could be rectified. It suggested that I simply had a neutral sexuality and that with effort, I could “redirect” this sexual energy to the “proper” sex — starting by fantasising about the more “masculine” women.

I genuinely tried this, for a week. Even at 14 I had a vivid imagination. I tried to imagine “masculine” women — short haired butch bikers, soldiers, anything that could still interest my sexuality, but as soon as the clothes came off and I was presented with a female form, my sexuality simply said no.

I realised then, even at 14, what “gender” was, even without consciously knowing it. I knownowthough, and I can explain it. “Gender” roles and stereotypes are imprinted on my sexuality as aproxyfor sex. I’m attracted to masculine things becausesocietyhas associated these as markers for male sex. This is how uniform, bear and leather kinks develop. All these “gender” things are signals to my sexuality that “this is a male”, simply because we no longer walk around naked.

Gender ideology is homophobic, and backwards

As Stonewall has now declared that gay men are attracted to malegender, they now have this backwards, and this is wholly homophobic. I am homosexual, exclusively attracted to the samesex. The gender roles and presentation are simply markers my sexuality uses. No wonder people are “disgusted” by gender non conformists, as their sexuality gets mixed signals and that cognitive dissonance can be felt. That is where bigotry and prejudice lie, failing to recognise it’s your sexuality having a meltdown because it’s not actually that clever, instead of recognising it and giving it a wry smile and a pat on the head.

Sexuality however is rooted in sex, specificallyphenotype. When all the gender presentation is stripped back and I see the naked form, my sexuality is interested in the sex characteristics of males, and this innate homosexuality is now under attack from trans rights activists.

Again and again I see sexuality reduced to a “genital preference”, with people saying that my insistence for male genitals is “exclusionary” to trans men, transphobic, and thus bigoted. Because they insist trans menaremen, if I don’t accept them as such and overcome my “genital preference”, I am bigoted and need to consider accepting men regardless of their appearance.

This is awfully and horrifically familiar. It is a new form of conversion therapy and while I have personally felt it (and then gone into full attack mode on twitter, which isn’t healthy), I can now see that lesbians are ground zero for this. Below are examples of the homophobic comments now made acceptable by this new ideology:

The Boxer Ceiling(warning, upsetting comments)
photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN6bUPUugEzmNmC-nZTunsVPUtgAuMANMmoVSD1j5gmROqY5E53VSCukHKc8zSRHA?key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3

Get The L out(UK)
www.gettheloutuk.com/

Sexuality is based on sex not gender

(continues)

I understand gender dysphoria and the need for some people to medically transition. However, all this does is alter the external appearance of the body so that someone’s visiblephenotypeismore likethe sex they want to be. Current medical capability does not deliver results in any trans man that can get my sexuality to “accept” them as a male. It doesn’t make me a bigot; it is the definition of who and what I am.

This is particularly harmful to young gay men and lesbians discovering their sexuality. To be told their innate sexuality is a “preference” they should think about is deeply worrying. I’ve been there, it isn’t pleasant being made to feel you are somehow “wrong in the head” for your feelings. In addition, coercing people to engage in sexual acts that they don’t want is sexual abuse, and the definition of rape culture. It needs to stop.

Words need to be clear for us to communicate

If a trans person wants to communicate and we want to be able to communicate with them, especially when it comes to dating, we all need to be able to agree and understand words. If someone says they are a “gay trans man”, that is all the information I need. I can understand that they are female, heterosexual and trans. Put together this means I can say I’m not interested in them sexually, and I never need to make them feel excluded because they are trans. I can put it another way and embarrassment and time wasting is avoided.

Similarly, I need to be able to express fairly that as a gay man, I am never going to be sexually turned on by a trans man’s body when naked. Of course I can be attracted when the only clue of their sex phenotype I get is what I can see with their pants on, but Iknowwhat my sexuality does when presented with a mixed or incomplete phenotype. It’s not interested. I need a way to express this to trans men on a dating site without resorting to things that will make them feel bad. “Gay man” should be all that is needed, but if “gay man” is widened to include people who are not turned off by mixed phenotype or female presentation, that is a real problem. We need accurate words.

Source: uncommongroundmedia.com/how-i-became-a-trans-rights-activist-then-turned-gender-critical/

Thelnebriati · 08/08/2021 16:09

A lot of the confusion could be cleared up straight away if people would use the existing legislation as their starting point. Its all published online, theres no excuse not to read it.

  • Legally, there are no 'safe spaces'. There are situations, spaces and services which do not breach equality legislation if they are single sex.
  • 'Sex', 'sexual orientation' and 'gender reassignment' are coded into law.
  • It is a breach of equality legislation to create a hostile environment for a group based on their protected characteristic. Even feminists or gay people. Even if you think they are 'transphobic' and really really bad people.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 16:13

Here is a set of questions for Bluebird. I'd appreciate his answers.

extract

10a) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through exploration of gender theory and re-framing of her perceptions of what it means to be a man or woman, would this be an appropriate response?

10b) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through damaging her opportunities to access employment, housing, and social support networks as a response to non-compliance, would this be an appropriate response?

10c) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through re-education at a dedicated facility, would this be an appropriate response?

10d) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through aversion therapy — inducing, for example, intense self-loathing and worthlessness in response to undesirable feelings– would this be an appropriate response?

10e) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through electroshock therapy, would this be an appropriate response?

10f) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was throughinternment followed by six months of brothel work followed by murder, would this be an appropriate response?

10g) if not, why not?

Source: apacificisland.wordpress.com/2017/02/14/unanswered-unanswerable-alt-title-agenda/

Artichokeleaves · 08/08/2021 16:16

Great post Purgatory.

And this is happening at the same time as an apparent push against conversion therapy.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 08/08/2021 16:24

[quote BluebirdsSong]@FloralBunting
Trans women aren't men, and it is transphobic to call trans women men.[/quote]
They're men. Every cell in their body is male.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 16:25

It really isn't transphobic to state that transwomen are male by sex.

That's scientific fact.

Biology.

Reality.

AlfonsoTheMango · 08/08/2021 16:27

My suggestion - as always - when derailers appear is to employ the scroll button.

Artichokeleaves · 08/08/2021 16:29

No. I'm prepared to accept the rules of MN which is not to use the label of man or woman on someone who has rejected it; however male and female are factual realities, not identities, and to express my own beliefs which are based in factual reality, it is necessary to be clear on who is male and who is female.

TW are male. That is the one single deciding factor on who gets to be a TW. No one who is not male can be one.

You cannot compel other people's beliefs or enforce their participation.

Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 16:39

@Tibtom

I wish people would understand not all Trans people are in favour of what's happening, why do we all have to be the enemy

Are you campaigning for no transwomen in women's sports?
Are you campainging to stop transwomen using women's hosital wards, toilets, prisons?
Are you campaigning against allowing Stonewall to affect policy?
Are you campaigning for grass roots women's groups to be consulted on natters affecting us?
Are you campaigning for the word 'woman' to refer exclusively to adult human females?
Do you recogise that regardless of the sex stereotypes you identify with, you are a man?
Do you recognise that sex stereotypes are harmful?

Yes I am on your first three points, believe me I detest Stonewall for reasons I have previously mentioned.

Difficult for me to get involved in grass roots womens groups for obvious reasons.

No to the next two points but I don't see a problem with the word" transwoman" as opposed to woman.
I don't claim to be a woman, I wish I was but I'm not and that's a fact that can't be denied.
I am a transwoman, I have thick skin though so if you want to call me a man although at times it can be upsetting and hurtful I'm not about to have a meltdown over it.

Yes I agree stereotypes are harmful especially for younger people.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 16:44

@imasoulman

I feel for transwomen in your position.

The actions of TRAs and SW are lumping you in with a larger group including some women haters and abusers.

This will have an unfortunate backlash on you. Now that truly is transphobic and horrific.

Flowers
Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 16:54

@TinselAngel

I now find myself joining the fight although it seems I'm not particularly welcome.

I don't think there is a fight that we are on the same side of.

If you are getting (polite) short shrift here it is because many other posters of a similar background and viewpoint to yourself have come on here already to do what you are trying to do. We've seen it before and each time it's expected that we're being graciously provided with a new viewpoint.

We know where the arguments are headed and it's not in the direction of women's rights (and certainly not trans widows rights).

I haven't said a thing about trans rights though, why would I discuss that here?

I don't think that there are any trans rights that need fighting for anyway.

I am all for single sex spaces, women only sport etc etc.
I want to see the rights and protections that women need put back in place.

I have been talking to my friends about the points and concerns that I have seen raised here.
Already made two people realise the impact that they have on women if they use the ladies for instance, a small thing I know but it helps spread the message.

Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 16:57

[quote Chickenyhead]@imasoulman

I feel for transwomen in your position.

The actions of TRAs and SW are lumping you in with a larger group including some women haters and abusers.

This will have an unfortunate backlash on you. Now that truly is transphobic and horrific.

Flowers[/quote]

Thank you

Ninkanink · 08/08/2021 16:59

@Imasoulman I echo what @Chickenyhead has said above.

This has never been about hate.

Ninkanink · 08/08/2021 17:00

And thank you for talking to your friends. It really is appreciated.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 17:02

Trans women aren't men, and it is transphobic to call trans women men

Only in your opinion. As I'm sure you know, being gender critical is a protected belief ☺️

CardinalLolzy · 08/08/2021 17:05

@CardinalLolzy

Is imasoulman still on this thread? they said earlier: "Perhaps I didn't word that very well, it hasn't come across as I meant.

I was trying to suggest that legislation should be changed to take cross dressers, self id'ers and the like out of the equation as far as safe spaces go.

I believe if would be useful all round to return to a point where there is a very clear distinction between a person who in simpler times would have been a "transsexual" and the rest of the people under the trans umbrella."

Do you (or anyone else) believe this is actually workable though? Could you draft a definition of transsexual that would differentiate clearly from other trans people?

I'm not even sure if there would be much point but I doubt it's even possible - would people treat/wish to treat these groups differently? (I know we have a mix of opinions generally on this)

soulman not meaning to nag you! Just picking up the thread of conversation from earlier. Interesting to hear what you are discussing in your community, I wish you well.
Jorrris · 08/08/2021 17:06

I am a transwoman, I have thick skin though so if you want to call me a man although at times it can be upsetting and hurtful I'm not about to have a meltdown over it

I wouldn't call you a man, purely because you have been respectful here and requested not to be. Which is fine.

Those who demand control over my language however are another matter.

Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 17:12

@CardinalLolzy

Is imasoulman still on this thread? they said earlier: "Perhaps I didn't word that very well, it hasn't come across as I meant.

I was trying to suggest that legislation should be changed to take cross dressers, self id'ers and the like out of the equation as far as safe spaces go.

I believe if would be useful all round to return to a point where there is a very clear distinction between a person who in simpler times would have been a "transsexual" and the rest of the people under the trans umbrella."

Do you (or anyone else) believe this is actually workable though? Could you draft a definition of transsexual that would differentiate clearly from other trans people?

I'm not even sure if there would be much point but I doubt it's even possible - would people treat/wish to treat these groups differently? (I know we have a mix of opinions generally on this)

I think it could be workable, but it's certainly not going to happen overnight.
There would need to be political leaders with the balls to stand up and say that the current situation is ludicrous and that laws need to be laid down that actually make sense.
Perhaps we need more women at the top end of policy making.

I have my own definition of what "transexual " means so for me its easy to differentiate.
I'm old enough to remember the "good old days " when the difference was clear.

You are right I think that getting people to see and accept the difference would be a hurdle.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 17:13

I am a transwoman, I have thick skin though so if you want to call me a man although at times it can be upsetting and hurtful I'm not about to have a meltdown over it.

Women and children (especially) should not be coerced to not freely recognise and name adulthood and male sex in an individual.
Censorship takes many forms, including more subtle suggestions that lead to self-censorship.

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!
Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 17:16

[quote Ninkanink]**@Imasoulman* I echo what @Chickenyhead* has said above.

This has never been about hate.[/quote]
Thank you

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 17:17

Women and children (especially) should not be coerced to not freely recognise and name adulthood and male sex in an individual.
Censorship takes many forms, including more subtle suggestions that lead to self-censorship

Yes I agree with this.

Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 17:18

@Jorrris

I am a transwoman, I have thick skin though so if you want to call me a man although at times it can be upsetting and hurtful I'm not about to have a meltdown over it

I wouldn't call you a man, purely because you have been respectful here and requested not to be. Which is fine.

Those who demand control over my language however are another matter.

Thank you
Imasoulman · 08/08/2021 17:21

@R0wantrees

I am a transwoman, I have thick skin though so if you want to call me a man although at times it can be upsetting and hurtful I'm not about to have a meltdown over it.

Women and children (especially) should not be coerced to not freely recognise and name adulthood and male sex in an individual.
Censorship takes many forms, including more subtle suggestions that lead to self-censorship.

The quote you have taken from my post was a response to a question, nothing more.
I really hope you are not accusing me of coercion !

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 17:35

Imasoulman Do you think it 'unkind' of women or children to accurately describe an adult male as a man?

How about when an adult male has disclosed his autogynephillia, should women and children feel inhibited in accurately describing him as a man?

When women and children accurately recognise male sex and adulthood, these two significant features are indicated in the noun, 'man'.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 08/08/2021 19:44

I don't claim to be a woman, I wish I was but I'm not and that's a fact that can't be denied.
I am a transwoman...

Gender devotees have managed to invent maybe a hundred words for different genders, yet the men who know that they aren't women, but like to be seen as women, choose to use a word that uses woman to describe themselves. What are the odds?

Swipe left for the next trending thread