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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

777 replies

HermioneKipper · 06/08/2021 10:34

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

OP posts:
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8
FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 14:54

@BluebirdsSong

Demands for trans inclusion is not homophobia, it is only because of your transphobia that you think so.
Demands that lesbians accept males as lesbians is pure, unadulterated homophobia.

Like Steve Rogers, I can do this all day.

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 14:54

@BluebirdsSong

Demands for trans inclusion is not homophobia, it is only because of your transphobia that you think so.
You're not very good at thinking this through are you 🧐
MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/08/2021 14:55

@Artichokeleaves

I'm perfectly fine with shunning and deplatforming bigots regardless of sex.

Females who will not submit to males are not entitled to rights, equality and resources.

you're free to announce [as a lesbian] you exclude trans women, but be ready to get criticised for the transphobia inherent to that statement.

Female people should expect punishment if they dare to state a sexual orientation that excludes male people from access to your body.

There we go. Ground zero.

This is what I love about Mumsnet - the rage of those confronted by the Mumsnet mantra ' No is a complete sentence

No to redefining women, No redefining sexuality and No to removing safeguarding and women's boundaries,

NO

RedDogsBeg · 08/08/2021 14:56

But you won't ever see me attacking the very concept of men being free to love men, and women being free to love women. You'll only see me challenging your ideas of who that should exclude.

Homosexuality is same sex attracted it therefore, by definition and set in Law, excludes those not of the same sex. You are in no position to dictate who homosexuals should include in their dating pool. Using abusive smears and coercion just proves how deeply homophobic you are.

GCAcademic · 08/08/2021 14:56

No one said you were literally raping anyone, don't be so disingenuous. But your attitudes certainly are rapey as you think other people's sexual boundaries are subject to your arbitration. Homosexuality is not transphobia. Transphobia is not women standing up for their rights and boundaries. People's bodies are not public spaces subject to the Equality Act. We have autonomy.

BluebirdsSong · 08/08/2021 14:58

@RedDogsBeg

But you won't ever see me attacking the very concept of men being free to love men, and women being free to love women. You'll only see me challenging your ideas of who that should exclude.

Homosexuality is same sex attracted it therefore, by definition and set in Law, excludes those not of the same sex. You are in no position to dictate who homosexuals should include in their dating pool. Using abusive smears and coercion just proves how deeply homophobic you are.

I simply do not agree with your transphobic definition of sexuality lol. It isn't homophobic to do so.
Artichokeleaves · 08/08/2021 14:59

You're demanding that homosexual people be 'inclusive' (with their bodies) sexually, which in effect means removing the right to be homosexual.

So yes, it is homophobia. It's absolutely and fundamentally homophobia. What did you think homophobia meant?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2021 15:04

You can't make up a definition of women that most people don't agree with, and then judge everyone else as a "phobe" based on your made up definition. Woman has a meaning, which doesn't include believing every male that claims they are a woman. It's based on biological sex. That's literally why the word exists.

RedDogsBeg · 08/08/2021 15:07

@BluebirdsSong

Demands for trans inclusion is not homophobia, it is only because of your transphobia that you think so.
It most definitely is homophobic as has been explained to you repeatedly:

Homosexuality is same sex attracted

No human can change sex, therefore trans people remain the sex they are whatever modifications they may or may not do to themselves.

The defining aspect of homosexuality is sex, not gender or feelings or any other made up criteria you wish to apply to it. Demanding and dictating that homosexuality must include attraction to those not of the same sex is indeed rapey, coercive and abusive.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2021 15:07

So you are continuing to ignore the fact that safeguarding is based on sex still.

Just as you are continuing to ignore lesbian’s right to define themselves and the fact their sexual orientation is same sex.

You have no evidence to prove your assertions on anything.

What exactly is your claim for speaking for trans people again?

Because your arguments are incoherent and are actually doing nothing for progressing their needs at all. In fact, I am not surprised at all that the usual trans posters are leaving these threads very much alone.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/08/2021 15:08

simply do not agree with your transphobic definition of sexuality lol. It isn't homophobic to do so.

I simply don't agree with your misogynistic ideas of what a woman is. It isn't transphobic to do so. So there we go.

"Lol"

Waitwhat23 · 08/08/2021 15:09

The dictionary definition of homosexual is 'sexually attracted to people of one's own sex'.

Your definition is meaningless and yes, homophobic. Lesbians should not be co-erced by cries of 'transphobe!' into sexual interactions with someone they are intrinsically not attracted to because they are the opposite sex. To demand otherwise is encouraging coersive rape.

RedDogsBeg · 08/08/2021 15:11

I simply do not agree with your transphobic definition of sexuality lol. It isn't homophobic to do so.

It's not my definition of sexuality it is set in Law and Statute as the definition of homosexuality, denying it like you do is homophobic and there are indeed laws against the homophobia you are persistently demonstrating.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2021 15:12

"Lol"

Grin
Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 15:12

Shock NOT the law!!!!

The law is transphobic didn't you know Grin

So is my egg timer, my hand towel and my sofa.

R0wantrees · 08/08/2021 15:13

Uncommon Ground Media
Dr Em
Are Transactivists Negging Feminism and the LGB?
June 4, 2020
(extract)
‘Negging’ is when predatory men insult women to lower their self-esteem in order to manipulate them. Has this been happening on the scale of a movement?
‘You are transphobic!’, ‘That is transphobic!’, ‘TERF!’.

Everything and everyone at some point is transphobic, not inclusionary enough. Women who understand that women as a class face sex-based discrimination are called ‘Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists’ and the acronym is treated as a heinous mark by the woke. Similarly, those who know that lesbians don’t have penises, or that same-sex attraction is real are branded ‘TERF’. (continues)

The manosphere has been grabbing media attention as ‘The sexist world has become a recruiting ground for potential mass shooters’, ‘We need to talk about the online radicalisation of young, white men’ and supposedly the manosphere communities are becoming more toxic, showing nihilistic and extreme anti-women ideologies according to recent studies. Negging is a method of the men’s rights movement. We see ‘negging’ used en mass by the sex industry as its advocates argue that those who oppose the sale of mostly female flesh to men are alleged to be ‘sex-negative’, those who oppose filmed sexual violence against women (porn) are supposedly ‘sex negative’, ‘prudish’ or ‘frigid’. Why would negging not be utilized by trans rights activists?

Negging is using a negative comment to initiate contact and force a woman to prove it is untrue, it belittles a woman’s confidence and makes women desire the accuser’s approval. This permits a way in for the manipulator and silences that gut feeling that something is not right. Described by Gavin De Becker as ‘typecasting’ the negative label compels a challenge, he used the real occasion of a rapist alleging a woman was too proud to accept assistance to gain access to her car. The woman’s desire to be liked by the man and not thought ‘proud’ prevented her from asking the natural safety questions in her mind – who is he, why is he here, do I feel comfortable?." (continues)

uncommongroundmedia.com/are-transactivists-negging-feminism-and-the-lgb/

BridgetInHerBravery · 08/08/2021 15:17

A bit late to the party but I see we have the usual accusations of transphobia for not wanting transwomen* in our sex-segregated spaces and provisions.

I would imagine that most women who do not want transwomen in women only spaces would be fine and dandy with having transmen in women only spaces.

Because it's not about trans*, it's about sex.

We are not saying no on the basis of trans* status, but on the basis of being male.

If you're going to throw unfounded slurs at us, misandrist would be more accurate than transphobe.

You could even use the word sexist, but that would show your misogyny, as any claim that the oppressed class is exerting power over the oppressor class just makes you sound like an MRA.

[*terms used to avoid deletion, despite my protected GC belief that women are adult human females and men are adult human males, however they identify]

Jorrris · 08/08/2021 15:18

I simply do not agree with your transphobic definition of sexuality lol. It isn't homophobic to do so.

It certainly is homophobic. Shame on you.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 15:26

@Jorrris

I simply do not agree with your transphobic definition of sexuality lol. It isn't homophobic to do so.

It certainly is homophobic. Shame on you.

Yeah, it's a weird one, isn't it?

'I've redefined homosexuality as functional bisexuality, so I can now redefine homophobia to mean whatever I want too!'

Pathetic, transparent bollocks.

SecretTransTwitterEngineer · 08/08/2021 15:30

@HermioneKipper

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

I saw the original thread and as a trans person who is now pretty much 100% that they'll have SRS. No it's not due to a debunked theory (and besides it was the other way around). No it's not because will miss 'sexual function' (the effect of HRT completely changes that anyway).

You get told that SRS should be the last thing you do and you should be 100% sure before you do it. In NHS terms it will be the last thing you do. It's also quite a big surgery and requires a LOT of down time and like all surgeries, can sometimes go wrong (but y'all new that as you're the ones who put up the sites / subreddits shaming trans women where it's gone wrong). Lastly there's quite a lot of prep going into surgery..and that means electrolysis in places that I really really don't want anyone to be.

Hope that helps.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 15:32

While I was talking about differences in offending patterns between men and women, I see the thread has moved on to homophobia and how people define it.

I think outspoken elements in the modern trans activist movement look damn homophobic to me. One of the things that typified the homophobia I witnessed growing up was lesbians and gay men being told to "just try harder"to like the bodies of the opposite sex. There was also the frequent claim that it was okay to be gay, so long as gay men didn't talk about it. In practice, this seemed to mean that if a lesbian mentioned at work that she and [female name] had gone to DFS for a sofa at the weekend, she could be accused of "flaunting" her sexuality. I found this oppression of lesbians and gay men repugnant then, and I find it repugnant now.

Now, let's see what lesbians today are dealing with.

extract

"I’ve been officially out as a butch lesbian since the early 00’s (and my fam knew before then, like it was a surprise to no one even as a kid in the 90’s lmao). I’m black and the community I grew up in is/was super religious. I mean old school FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR SINNERS kind of shit.

"The opposition I faced with that is nothing, N-O-T-H-I-N-G compared to the hatred, contempt, and homophobia encountered when dealing with the trans community. I have been fighting this fight for years only to be told I’m lying. No waaaay a man would really tell you to suck dick and a bunch of women would cheer them on and blame YOU for not being inclusive it’s happening. No waaaay that’s true!

"Oh, you have proof?

"Well, um, those aren’t REAL transwomen.

"Really? Not a single one of those people is a “real” transwoman?: lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

:I have lost so many friends, some of them whom I’ve known since elementary school, to this cult. People who watched me get jumped and bullied in school numerous times, literally spit on at protests, and disowned by a huge chunk of my family because I stood up for my right to marry another woman someday. They went on to call me a bigot, transphobe, TERF (ironically I’d never heard this term until I was called it), the list goes on.

"When we got the right to marry and could no longer be denied other basic rights in the US, I figured the next logical step would be to focus on homosexuals in other places where they are still in literal danger; I assumed we would listen to them and see what we could do to help them obtain those rights too.

"Instead we ended up with this. Instead I had to fight the same exact fights again, but this time against the people who were once my friends.

"For a little while, I was spared some viciousness compared to white women because BLM was the hot take and no one wanted to be perceived as a racist. I watched the nicest woman I knew, who fosters animals and children and literally would not hurt a fly, be called Karen and told to kill herself while the aggressor was cheered on. All because she didn’t want to have sex with a male.

:As for my former immunity, that’s not been the case for a while. I have been called the N-word and other slurs while my own friends are only concerned I don’t “misgender” the person using them.

"I’m not going to lie, I am angry. I’m angry at gay men for by and large not giving a shit until it started happening to them, even as we lost TrueLesbians, BiologicalLesbians, and others, and ActualLesbians got taken over (and that’s just the stuff here on Reddit). I’m angry at the straights for the same, for not caring or paying attention until they were a target.

"THat being said, I am still very thankful for everyone standing up right now. I am thankful that there might finally be a future where I can focus my efforts on helping other homosexuals again rather than hunkering down in defense mode.

:Thank you, everyone.:

From: oursuperstories.com/i-have-been-fighting-this-fight-for-years-only-to-be-told-im-lying/ Italics are mine.

Now, gotta tell you, this sounds mighty familiar to what lesbians were subjected to before. The homophobia has just been given a new coat of paint.

RedDogsBeg · 08/08/2021 15:38

Now, gotta tell you, this sounds mighty familiar to what lesbians were subjected to before. The homophobia has just been given a new coat of paint.

Absolutely Purgatory, and those denying and promoting it are no less homophobic, bigoted and prejudiced than their predecessors.

FloralBunting · 08/08/2021 15:39

Spot on, Purgatory, and thank you for posting that.

Chickenyhead · 08/08/2021 15:44

@FloralBunting

Spot on, Purgatory, and thank you for posting that.
Made me cry.

How absolutely horrific triple whammy abuse.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/08/2021 15:54

Chickenyhead hugs. We are all banding together to support our sisters. We are going to signal boost their voices whenever we can.

I didn't expect to be having to do the worst parts of the 90s again; none of us did! But we did it before and we will do it again.

Only enthusiastic consent is consent. Males, if she's not into you or other males, she's not into you. Get over it!

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