Deleted/censorship on mumsnet now!

[HermioneKipper]

My thread asking about transwomen/transitioning/penises has been deleted.

Why are we not allowed to discuss this? It’s a genuine question and extremely relevant to the debate about transwomen entering female spaces.

There was no abuse of trans people that I could see aside from a few people attempting to derail by saying that they couldn’t see why women might be concerned about having to share their space!

This isn’t right

It made some very good points.

'sexual reassignment surgery' is quite dangerous and often has crap outcomes.

I think therefore it is unethical to make anything contingent on individuals having the surgery. There should be no encouragement. So this 'old school trans sexuals can use women'a spaces' trope needs to go out of the window. no men belong in women's single sex spaces regardless of what body modification they've had.

It's because the narrative is that trans people are the most oppressed ever and all lead lives where they struggle terribly. Deviation from that narrative is "transphobic".

Oh and just a comment on your thread title:

This is not just happening now. This has been the policy on MN for a long time.

We work under a very strict set of guidelines here, and have done for years, which half the time I can’t really understand nor make rhyme or reason of. I tend to just say what I want to say and if I get deleted, so be it. However 3 strikes and you potentially get a ban.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

It made some very good points.

'sexual reassignment surgery' is quite dangerous and often has crap outcomes.

I think therefore it is unethical to make anything contingent on individuals having the surgery. There should be no encouragement. So this 'old school trans sexuals can use women'a spaces' trope needs to go out of the window. no men belong in women's single sex spaces regardless of what body modification they've had.

This.

It shouldn’t be contingent on whether or not the individual does or doesn’t have a penis. Fact is, that individual is of the sex that carries a penis. Therefore they are not a woman even if it has been removed.

@Ninkanink

Oh and just a comment on your thread title:

This is not just happening now. This has been the policy on MN for a long time.

We work under a very strict set of guidelines here, and have done for years, which half the time I can’t really understand nor make rhyme or reason of. I tend to just say what I want to say and if I get deleted, so be it. However 3 strikes and you potentially get a ban.

It’s so disturbing. I feel like I’m only being woken up to the true nature of what’s going on here.

It would be bloody unfair if I got a ban. I said nothing abusive. All I did was ask questions about a topic that’s extremely relevant to a lot of women and express my concern about the future and safety of women’s spaces.

It’s bloody MUMSNET! Surely this should be a safe space for women to debate rationally!

But not these issues- they upset too many men

The problem is that there are many who would like to close this space down.

I think mumsnet has to monitor it to justify keeping it at all.

You learn the rules, albeit for me, slowly

I wish I’d said it on the other thread but has anyone every come up with a workable solution to the ever present problem of figuring out which men are ‘pretending to be women’ vs those who are legitimately trans? They seem to this will be straightforward. Do they ever respond to the fact that TW commit sexual offences at the same incidence as the male class. Being ‘true” trans (according to the stonewall definition and associated dogma) does NOT mean the relevant individual is safe to women.

Further, even if the individual can be said to be safe, their presence in a female space would not be conducive to women feeling safe, since a huge number of women have been assaulted, abused and harmed by men.

I’ve never actually heard/seen an answer to either of those extremely important points.

Nothing new year. I got banned for a while a few years ago for talking about this subject.

It’s bloody MUMSNET! Surely this should be a safe space for women to debate rationally!

Yes. Unfortunately it's continuously targeted by activists and I guess MN find themselves treading a fine line as a result of it. Despite this, the phrase radicalised on mumsnet hasn't come from nowhere, so despite the limitations and restrictions, we have still managed to spread awareness via this platform.

But yes, it would be helpful if we could actually debate fully rather than having important valid research and knowledge deleted because of hurt feelings.

I find I can live with the compromises MN make to enable this space to exist Chickenyhead. Not thrilled but a less compromised space closed down in 6 months would be a far worse outcome.

Oh the deleting threads on here drives me mad along with the bum lickers who whine " I don't think this is real so I'm reporting this to MNHQ"

If you don't believe it don't read or comment anymore...simple.

Crikey.

It's heartening to see the censorship here still comes as a shock. You can say more on twitter these days.

@Chickenyhead who though? And why do they get to decide what women are allowed to talk about.

There is so much misinformation and bullshit out there from the other side of the debate. Apparently people can say what they want on Twitter/the guardian comments sections and that can stand in the name of freedom of speech. People denying that xy chromosomes or male puberty have any bearing on sporting prowess or stating that lesbians are to blame for Chris Chan raping his mother for not having sex with him.

It’s blood boiling!

Yes I’m of the same mind as @nauticant. I appreciate that we can even discuss it here at all. It’s infuriating and especially annoying when you first grasp just how tightly controlled it is, but it’s honestly important to keep this space going.

I can say what I like in person, and I do. They’ll never silence us all.

Someone managed to archive the first 9 pages of that thread on archive.org - enter the URL there to read it, if you missed it.

Oh and a very important addition to the point I made above about Male inclusion in female spaces being unworkable: do these people ever actually respond to points about women whose religion or culture would mean they absolutely cannot be in the same space with a male?

They don’t ever seem to care about that. So much for inclusivity and diversity and respecting women’s deeply held convictions and beliefs...

@Ninkanink

I wish I’d said it on the other thread but has anyone every come up with a workable solution to the ever present problem of figuring out which men are ‘pretending to be women’ vs those who are legitimately trans? They seem to this will be straightforward. Do they ever respond to the fact that TW commit sexual offences at the same incidence as the male class. Being ‘true” trans (according to the stonewall definition and associated dogma) does NOT mean the relevant individual is safe to women.

Further, even if the individual can be said to be safe, their presence in a female space would not be conducive to women feeling safe, since a huge number of women have been assaulted, abused and harmed by men.

I’ve never actually heard/seen an answer to either of those extremely important points.

You won’t get an answer as there is no solution. Yes Mumsnet should be a safe space for women to air their concerns about this and many other things, but we are not allowed our safe spaces anymore, however Women Won’t Wheest

I know justine has dealt with heavy criticism for letting this space exist.

MRAs, TRAs etc

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q

No talking about penis. It's illegal now.

Many people who get strikes have no idea why. The thing is, it's supposed to be virtuous to deny the evidence in front of you, look right at it and say what you are supposed to, which some would term as compulsion to lie.

It's a massive problem for women, evidenced by how even on a women's forum women are very strictly policed and punished for speaking their own truth and beliefs instead of supporting one which is undeniably male centric and puts female people second.

@Chickenyhead ah this is helpful and makes more sense now.

It’s frightening how much power that lobby has.

And I don’t fully understand their agenda

@YouJustDoYou

No talking about penis. It's illegal now.

🤣🤣🤣

What will we talk about?????

@Jorriss

It’s bloody MUMSNET! Surely this should be a safe space for women to debate rationally!

Yes. Unfortunately it's continuously targeted by activists and I guess MN find themselves treading a fine line as a result of it. Despite this, the phrase radicalised on mumsnet hasn't come from nowhere, so despite the limitations and restrictions, we have still managed to spread awareness via this platform.

But yes, it would be helpful if we could actually debate fully rather than having important valid research and knowledge deleted because of hurt feelings.

I was aware of on here but had no interest when I looked years ago. For motherly things. Just didn't seem it was my style. But because of radicalised on mumsnet elsewhere when being attacked on this issue I came back to find out what the hell was going on here. You are all so brave. Now I've learnt to garden etc. Thank you all so much.