Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.

If those males acknowledged that they are indeed males, and respected females by not accessing single sex spaces set up for safeguarding purposes.

If male people are unable/unwilling to acknowledge their sex and respect sex-based Safeguards, women and girls boundaries and/or the importance of consent then a range of measures are available to address this and should be employed.
This is the basic principle Safeguarding, the responsibility to recognise and identify the nature of specific risk/s and then to take measures to mitigate. Recognition of the fact that risk can not of course be entirely eradicated is never a basis for failing to adopt appropriate steps to mitigate.

@Ultimatecougar

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.

That’s quite offensive, many working class families have more of a racial mix than i’ve observed in middle class families

Yesindeedydoodey

"Predators are like that. ;)"

Why the wink? Do you find this a lighthearted or amusing topic?

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

I'd love to see your evidence for this claim.

Here's some of ours:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

And once again a TRA:

Reduces the argument to toilets. What about sports, refuges, changing rooms, etc?

Implies that men wouldn't go to the trouble of "dressing like a woman" - when men have gone to far more effort than simply wearing clothes to access victims. (And how transphobic of you to assume a man would have to wear a dress and makeup - "transwomen don't owe you femininity". )

Tries to make out that women are the agressors. Against the sex that is generally bigger and stronger than them. NOPE.

Displays zero understanding of safeguarding, or doesn't give a crap about it.

Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

Don't be ridiculous. Not all men who prey on women are stereotypical homophobes as well as predating on women. This is a cliche of the "macho man". Some abusive men have in the past called themselves "male feminists".

And again, it's a shit argument.

All TRA arguments for why some males should be treated as women are based on special pleading and are pretty shit, but it doesn't appear to hold them back from making them?

Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

I would love to understand why you would think this? This is a huge exercise in 'stereotyping' that you are engaging in. All to dismiss women's voiced concerns. And again, imagine if safeguarding was based on whether you went through a male's wardrobe.... yep.. you are all clear, no pink tee shirts here!!

Wow! success! you have simply made those safeguarding checks quick and simple. Well done!

@Ultimatecougar

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.

Ignorance in action. Working class people have been working and living and mixing with all the people who have come here when their middle class counterparts were still worrying about the house prices going down. Please dont add class predjuice to the misogny, homophobia and racism of gender idology, that would be just too depressing.

OMG that [pink t-shirts argument is the bottom of the barrel, it really is.

Why do you think there's an unusually high rate of suddenly realising you're a TW among convicted male sex offenders? Are they the non-pink-wearing macho types you mean? Because they don't seem to mind?

As an aside I just googled the first three predatory men that came to mind, Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and Peter Sutcliffe. Found all of them in pink within seconds.

Yes predatory men do wear pink. Yes predatory men absolutely would use "being trans" as a cover if it allowed them access to victims. Have you met predatory men?

And remember, they don't even have to wear anything in particular, They can just say they are women to get access to previously safe spaces for women and children.

Please provide links to these women beating up transwomen or else it looks like bullshit.

@dyslek @TrainedByCats it's not ignorance, I come from a working class white background and many of my relatives and people I went to school with are racist, homophobic and sexist. It's extremely common in majority white working class areas.

I'm not talking "I have a black friend but" racism, I'm talking straight out "I am a racist and I don't care" Tommy Robinson supporters.

They are also not keen on trans people, as you might expect.

I'm not speculating. I know these people. I'm related to some of them and their views are extremely common.

@Deliriumoftheendless

Please provide links to these women beating up transwomen or else it looks like bullshit.

I call bullshit. No answer to my request either.

[quote Ultimatecougar]**@dyslek* @TrainedByCats* it's not ignorance, I come from a working class white background and many of my relatives and people I went to school with are racist, homophobic and sexist. It's extremely common in majority white working class areas.

I'm not talking "I have a black friend but" racism, I'm talking straight out "I am a racist and I don't care" Tommy Robinson supporters.

They are also not keen on trans people, as you might expect.

I'm not speculating. I know these people. I'm related to some of them and their views are extremely common.[/quote]
I'm also from a white working class background and I don't recognise this at all. Maybe you just know some shit people.

Maybe some of these posters haven’t twigged Hollyoaks isn’t a documentary.

[quote Ultimatecougar]**@dyslek* @TrainedByCats* it's not ignorance, I come from a working class white background and many of my relatives and people I went to school with are racist, homophobic and sexist. It's extremely common in majority white working class areas.

I'm not talking "I have a black friend but" racism, I'm talking straight out "I am a racist and I don't care" Tommy Robinson supporters.

They are also not keen on trans people, as you might expect.

I'm not speculating. I know these people. I'm related to some of them and their views are extremely common.[/quote]
Oh look an anecdote.

Woot.

Yes all the people i know are green aliens with tentacles.

Obviously your anecdote is highly representative and not at all pre-judged nonsense and stereotyping of the working class. Cos you know better than every other fucker.

Well all those people judging my anecdote - where do the likes of Tommy Robinson (and the racist tabloids) get their support? They certainly isn't appealing to the middle classes. Not that middle classes can't be racist, but it's more subtle.

It is probably different in London and other areas with more diversity, but there are a lot of white working class areas where it's fairly unusual to be from a non white background and these tend to be areas where there is more prejudice.

QueenPeary

That is what I love about this board. Women will actually go the extra mile and check out whether some bonkers assertion has any validity. Thank you QueenPeary, and thank you all for your continued efforts of providing well reasoned posts.

I doubt there’s any more racism with in the wc than the mc but I suspect it comes out in different ways.

@Ultimatecougar

Many working class people are very scathing of any "looney left" nonsense which includes Trans rights. Unfortunately they are often just as scathing about racial, sexual issues and especially in the older generation are still quite homophobic.

Shitting on working class people and treating them all like ignorant knuckle draggers.

What a unique and original attitude.

Tommy Robinson is middle class...

I'd suggest that working class people could also be scathing of "looney left" policies because they have more important things to worry about.

Anyway this is becoming a complete derail now so that's the last post I'm making on the matter.

@Yesindeedydoodey

" And again, it's a shit argument. If a burglar is determined to burgle my house they probably can. If a murderer is determined to kill me they probably can. Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No."

Fine - make the laws against transwomen using women's bathrooms even stronger, then. Make them as strong as you like. In reality, they won't make a bit of difference, will they? Attacks by transwomen in women's toilets are a vanishingly rare occurrence and nobody can think of a sensible way of policing it.

The law doesn't like to be made to look like an ass, though. Those involved in making it try to be careful in that way. Thus there isn't a law against, say, leopards using women's toilets, on account of leopards very rarely break into women's toilets (in the UK, anyway) and even if they did, the law could do nothing to stop it. Predators are like that. ;)

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this (largely non-) issue. We're being asked to think of a predatory sort of man deliberately dressing up in women's clothing, with a wig and some make up too, presumably, for some reason believing that a women's toilet is the best place to target women. Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

But OK, let's assume there are such men. We're thinking of a daylight toilet attack, since we could assume that at night, when there are very few people around, and the toilet in question is one of the few that's unlocked at night, there'd be no need for a man to disguise himself as a woman. So: there's this man, dressed as a woman, who attacks a woman in a women's toilet ... and assumes his disguise won't be noted and reported ... and the police won't be able to pick him out in a crowd as he runs off afterwards (hopefully for his sake not in heels)?

No, I don't think so. I'm not a predatory man but if I were ... to be honest, I actually can't think of sillier way of doing my preying on women.

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

news.stv.tv/north/hunt-for-man-in-dress-who-flashed-at-schoolgirl-and-woman?amp&__twitter_impression=true

No thinking needed. Predatory men DO go to the lengths of 'putting on dresses' for their perversions and sexual assaults on women and girls.

"Still pushing the 'women do it too' angle I see."

Well, no, it's more like women do it only. That is, women beat up transwomen in women's toilets - that's happened often. But transwomen attacking women in women's toilets ... that's far rarer.

"Have we covered off the 'but the males who identify as women will simply keep using them' point yet? The one that basically states that those males have no respect for women or laws or social mores despite stating that they just want to pee. That is always an interesting one to see. Some prominent activists push that particular point at lot."

Full of ignorant and unpleasant but nonetheless splendidly smug assumptions but, hey, I'll play: By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen. And no, of course they respect women, or there'd be actual, repeated incidents of transwomen attacking non-transwomen in toilets which, of course, there isn't. However yes, transwomen will keep using women's toilets, despite the law, because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

They aren't going to give a flying one about the silly, irrational sensitivities of transphobics, nor laws that are produced by such people. They're going to do what's most likely to be physically safe for them. Do you see how that works? I mean, please do wheedle and whine, as much as you like, about people 'respecting the law'. But people will, in general, do what keeps them physically safe, before they'll follow the law. They'd be stupid to do otherwise. You would be stupid to demand that they do otherwise.

Because Black/women from other races/ethnicities have enough shit defending themselves in other areas to start fighting another cause that is pretty much well defended by another group of women. I'm not white and I'm GC but if I ever said that, people would assume I've been conditioned to think this because of my culture/religion/husband, etc. and not because I can think for myself. Fuck off to all that. I'm going to carry on fighting racism first since that's something that directly impacts me and my family on a daily basis. Your friend is a dick.

So where's the proof of transwomen being beaten up by women in toilets, surely if it happens often there should be an easily available link?