Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Actual buttergasp at that tweet.

I dont get it

What do they think the gotcha is with that tweet

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

I dont get it

What do they think the gotcha is with that tweet

I think you have to be incredibly racist to get it.

Aahhhhh

Gotcha

Pleased i don’t get it then

@Helleofabore

What the fresh hell is that purgatory?

That makes absolutely zero sense.

Doesn’t it just? It makes so little sense I can't actually even explain why it makes no sense.

It seems to be whoever shouts the loudest. The K word covered that (not endorsing its use, just explaining the meaning). But yes, largely it is white middle aged women.

@Lacedwithgrace

It seems to be whoever shouts the loudest. The K word covered that (not endorsing its use, just explaining the meaning). But yes, largely it is white middle aged women.

Depends on your definition of GC

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Question. Is it only white racists who are trans activists?

Ulrika, can a black person identify as being British? Or someone who was born in Germany? If you say yes to that then you've just destroyed your own argument.

twitter.com/StephMcalea/status/1476964683957641218?t=xXPg60cAQ-Krm5KC5HP1VA&s=19

WHAT. THE. HELL.

What the actual hell ... and why do trans activists always bring up Black people unnecessarily in their arguments?

Keke

You might find this thread enlightening.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4439659-Ryan-Grim-results-of-latest-trans-activism-poll-A-tweaked-playbook-for-the-US

They are now being told to do so to tie their plight to those of people of colour. However, I am sure that this was recognised long ago that in doing so they can make others more sympathetic. Maybe it went all the way back to the Denton’s advice.

I'm middle aged but very definitely working class and rough as a badger's . Gender critical . It was middle class men and women TWAW who bullied me out my local Labour Party after decades of membership

@Helleofabore

Keke

You might find this thread enlightening.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4439659-Ryan-Grim-results-of-latest-trans-activism-poll-A-tweaked-playbook-for-the-US

They are now being told to do so to tie their plight to those of people of colour. However, I am sure that this was recognised long ago that in doing so they can make others more sympathetic. Maybe it went all the way back to the Denton’s advice.

But it doesn't though, it just causes great offense. All these people are doing is showing their own prejudice.

Did barley ever come back with the statistics?

Do we even have a definition of ‘working class vs middle class’? And I would like to know, because I never quite grasped it, do people move between the classes?

And if they can move upwardly, does that make them people who have no experience of being the class they once were?

The reality is, I have only really experienced ‘working class/middle class/ upper class’ discussions in the UK. And usually to force people into descriptive boxes for denigration purposes.

Maybe barely will be forthcoming about those definitions and answer those questions to. Since they have been so keen to use it to demonize posters on MN.

TheWeeDonkey

I agree.

However, the Transgender Law Group’s research showed that it ‘softened’ people (who cannot see the offensiveness) up to being more receptive among those they surveyed. So they have no conscience in utilising it.

Maybe this article provides another good place to start for barley.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-prisoners-switch-gender-again-once-freed-from-womens-units-qjjsd0nlx

(No share token sorry, go look in usual archive services, I read it on one of those - can’t mention which or get deleted).

In response to a freedom of information request, the SPS confirmed that one transgender woman housed within the women’s estate was on the sex offenders register as a result of a previous offence unrelated to the offence for which they were currently being held.

It also confirmed that no one currently in SPS custody had made the service aware that they were in possession of a gender recognition certificate confirming their acquired gender.

Another recent FoI request revealed that 12 trans prisoners convicted of violence or sexual crimes had been accommodated in Scottish women’s jails within the past 18 months. Only one had transitioned fully while the others had self-identified as female.

And

On Christmas Eve, Scotland’s prison population stood at 7,435, with only 259 listed as women. A total of 15 prisoners were trans, 12 of them trans women and three trans men. It is understood that all are currently held in female units as previous experience of trans men in the male estate had caused tensions.

So, do please tell us again barley

‘ The truth is the vast amount of women prisoners will probably never even come across a trans women, and if they do it's likely to be someone fiully transitioned and serving time for a non violent offence. There are very strict vetting rules, which have rightfully been strengthened after procedues were not followed in the Karen White case. ‘

Because as usual, your posts lack the credibility you believe they do. Your intention as it seems to have become apparent across threads is to try to shame women not actually engage in discussion to improve the lives both women and transitioned males.

And please stop using working class women’s immediate needs and priority to dismiss their concerns around the potential impacts on their rights.

It is very offensive.

And finally.

kpssinfo.org/reports/

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex is an excellent resource for anyone wanting to read more about this issue.

And that link above has the quantitative research mentioned in the article including the appendices.

Which also gives female prison guards a voice for their own concerns.

Just looking at those figures again. 12 males in prisons with 259 females.

4.6% of ‘women’ in Scottish prisons are male. Either transitioned males commit at a higher crime than females or… some males are using the loophole to get into female prisons that are not trans. Or is it something else that also should be researched.

Which is it?

To answer the original question, I doubt it very much that women who are white and middle class are the only ones who are GC (or as I would prefer, stand up for women's safety and dignity).

Here is some more to read. This time from the US perspective.

Biological Males Have Repeatedly Sexually Assaulted Females in Washington Women’s Prison, Former Inmate Claims

twitter.com/womenreadwomen/status/1477672074521214976?s=21

I am sure some posters will continue with their narrative of

‘It never happens’
‘It was just the one time’
‘Oh, it has been more… well it is not many. Not enough to worry about’
‘Look… there is squirrel!’
‘Oh.. still happening? Look there is a unicorn!!! Nothing to see here. It is nowhere near as bad as [insert other distraction here].’
‘You are all just causing a moral panic, you haters!’
‘My goodness, the unicorn shits gold’.

Just adding this here for readers in response again to barleys claim that everything has been ok with the changed safeguarding protocols.

From KPSS posted on 16th January,

Under the current MoJ policies KW has been, and continues to be, held in a man's prison. But we are in contact with women in prison and with female former offenders who have experienced similar incidents from similar prisoners under the current policies

I know the MoJ claims that there have been no recorded incidents of assault or sexual assault committed by prisoners of the male sex in the female estate. Key word: RECORDED. Key fact: I know women who beg to differ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4454678-Cheryle-Karen-White-prison-sexual-assault

Maybe barley can come and tell us just how many more women are acceptable collateral damage?

No more darvo styled hyperbolic statements for ‘rhetorical’ purposes, just a simple and honest answer. How many women are acceptable collateral damage before the system reverts to single sex only again?

I suspect there will be no answer forthcoming.