Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

He said that to put you on the defensive and make you feel bad. He sounds like a prick

That is, women beat up transwomen in women's toilets - that's happened often. But transwomen attacking women in women's toilets ... that's far rarer.

And you will have some statistical proof relevant to the UK for those assertions for us to peruse?

Please do link it up. We like facts on this board not emotive and manipulative hyperbole. Because we get enough of that and it is beyond tired.

Sorry yesindeedy I can’t get your link to these assaults on transwomen to open. Can you post them again?

Imagine not being able to vote just cos you were a women

Not so long ago reading ths thread.

Imagine not wanting to vote as a woman no one recognises what women are anymore

Women basically aren't in danger of transwomen in toilets - in the same way as white women weren't in danger of black women in toilets

Are you really saying transwomen are women in the same way black women are women? Are you fucking joking? That is bloody offensive and you have some nerve coming here to tell off women!

Heavens imagine jus5 writing that racist stuff on here yesindody

That’s terrible things to say

Full of ignorant and unpleasant but nonetheless splendidly smug assumptions but, hey, I'll play: By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen. And no, of course they respect women, or there'd be actual, repeated incidents of transwomen attacking non-transwomen in toilets which, of course, there isn't. However yes, transwomen will keep using women's toilets, despite the law, because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

Please get my quote correct at least. “By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen”. I distinctly said males who identify as women. If they are identifying as ‘female’ they are not following the current rhetoric that transpeople and their allies are not denying biological reality.

Your ‘And no, of course they respect women,’ does not then match up with ‘will keep using women's toilets, despite the law’.

So, firstly on what authority do you speak for transwomen? And secondly, thanks for the honesty. That even if the law changed males who identify as women would continue to use female single spaces. Because that clearly states that they would not be respecting women at all. And that anything that is said to the contrary should be considered lies? Is that really what you mean? Because that is the only interpretation of a group of males using female single sex spaces despite a law change. That they do not respect females and the needs of females.

because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

It is not any female’s role in life to protect males. We are not human shields. We are not support humans. If males need protection from other males, then they need to campaign for their own safe spaces. In fact, some males who are trans are campaigning for that very thing. Because, it is only SOME males who believe they have the right to female single sex spaces.

Which is a great thing isn’t it? Because according to you, females are assaulting males in the female toilets. So, they are certainly not safe there. Why are they there again?

Although, we still would like those UK statistics please. Bonafide independent and verified or official crime statistics only. Please do not bother with any collected by a lobby group via self reporting as they are rather unreliable. As we have seen from other statistics they release.

How often do you think that's happened as compared to, say, a bona fide, born-as-a-woman woman - in a dress, to boot - beating up some other woman in a women's toilet? Not flashing at a woman, mind you, but actually beating one up?

I don’t know. But I would certainly love some statistics that prove what you say.

Do transwomen have no sense of self preservation? If they have, why are they risking life and limb in female toilets? Why are they not campaigning against female violence against transwomen? Why are no MPs bringing this up in the House? What are the Police doing about this?

“A big girl did it and ran away.”

This is getting utterly ludicrous. Women basically aren't in danger of transwomen in toilets - in the same way as white women weren't in danger of black women in toilets back in the good old days of Jim Crow in the USA, despite what the frothing fruitcake Jim Crow supporters used to blither on about. It's childish nonsense. Grow up. They're in the toilet to have a pee and then get out of it as quickly as they possibly can before they have to deal with any squealing, affronted, over-privileged, stuffed-up, Daily Mail - reading Karen who just must cast herself as a 'victim', despite the fact that no one has oppressed her in any way whatsoever. It's pathetic. Just about the most ludicrous, contemptible, 'First World problem' I've ever come across.

I think I can call bingo here.

Accusation of racism
Some pretty clear misogyny, classism and ageism carried in that ‘Karen’
They just want to pee
Females are more voilent than transwomen
Females need to be human shields
You are all childish
It doesn’t matter what the law says, they will use them anyway
So what if a predator dresses up to abuse/assault women, it is just the one

And yet, not one shred of evidence. And not once acknowledging the needs of vulnerable and traumatised women. And not once acknowledging that girls and women also have the right to privacy away from male people (all males) and dignity too.

And yes, transwomen need privacy and dignity along with safety too. However, their needs do not take priority over female’s needs. Again, if they feel unsafe in the male facilities they need to not only campaign to change the behaviour of males to make it safe in the male facilities, or campaign for their own spaces.

The very nature of making female spaces ‘mixed sex’ means some females will be excluded from the spaces set up for their needs. Quite a misogynist take to ignore that.

Oh. And add that not only accusing women wanting single sex spaces as racists, but the very comparison itself is arguably, you know, racist as fuck to say trans women are women like black women are women.

Really not sure how much more trope you can roll out. But you did quite well covering so much in tonight’s posts.

But, we are still waiting for the statistics on female violence. Towards other females in toilets and towards males who are in the female toilets.

Because that might help with credibility a bit.

@Yesindeedydoodey

Reach? We know not but do keep showing yourself up dear little MRA.

All women are women, no matter their colour. All men are men.

I only know one person who I know buys the actual paper Daily Mail. They can afford to buy it once a week (a particular puzzle) and then read it all.
This woman has had a life of violence and poverty and has survived to now have a small amount of safety.
I thought of her.
squealing, affronted, over-privileged, stuffed-up, Daily Mail - reading Karen who just must cast herself as a 'victim', despite the fact that no one has oppressed her in any way whatsoever.

By 'males who identify as females', you mean transwomen.

Well yes, that is the definition

oneEpisode

The amount of prejudice, ignorance of the lives of women and hate in that post is quite astounding isn’t it? All because people disagree with them. And ask for evidence for their wild claims.

They aren't going to give a flying one about the silly, irrational sensitivities of transphobics,

Yes, we're well aware that boundary violators don't actually respect women and girls.

@Yesindeedydoodey

You seem very confused and angry.

Please do provide evidence of women by sex being a risk to transwomen. I mean, that isn't reflected anywhere that I have been able to find. It almost sounds...made up. Repeatedly stating it doesn't make it true you know, it just makes the person saying it look rather silly.

Here are some actual facts for you, not that you are interested, because all you want to do is bully women on a feminist board (Well done):

Transwomen are men by sex.

Transwomen have been shown to offend at the same rate as all other groups of men by sex.

Men by sex, including Transwomen are physically stronger than women by sex. Primarily due to the effects of testosterone.

Men by sex, including Transwomen, are responsible for over 90% of violent crime in this country and 98% of sex crimes.

Prisons for men by sex in England house approximately 80k prisoners, whereas women by sex prisoners total around 3.4k. Wow, what a difference.

Not all men by sex (including Transwomen) are rapists, but all rapists are men by sex (including Transwomen).

In summary men by sex and women by sex do not offend at the same rate (prison numbers) and men are physically much stronger (why sports have historically been categorised by sex).

I feel the need to introduce you to the Equality Act. Did you know that biological sex is a protected characteristic, as is gender reassignment. They are separate.

Some more facts for you to ignore:

The sexes are NOT equal in strength or violence, ergo women by sex require protection from men by sex

Repeated here for you: Transwoman are men by sex and offend at a similar rate to them.

Black women by sex are women by sex. They pose no additional risk to women. Never have.

Now to conclude, women by sex have historically had separate safe spaces, where men aren't allowed, due to their risk profile 😵 (this includes toilets which you seem fascinated by, but also refuges, prisons, rape counselling services).

Bear with me, although I doubt you are reading this, There is no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that simply declaring yourself to be a woman, makes a transwoman less risk than any other man by sex. NONE.

So on what basis are you claiming that women no longer deserve the protection offered under the Equality Act? Women hatred and self entitlement? Male privilege?

There is no logical basis evidenced in fact.

And all of this without even having to use personal information as to why men being in refuges, toilets, rape crisis etc might damage women in other ways. Wow.

Having been a victim of repeated violent rape and sexual assaults by men by sex, I have a right not to have to be confronted with men by sex everywhere I go to get help.

Check your privilege. Nasty vile woman hating posts are beneath my contempt. Especially when full of twisted misinformation.

@littlbrowndog

Heavens imagine jus5 writing that racist stuff on here yesindody

That’s terrible things to say

The mask is well and truly off.

Well, no, it's more like women do it only. That is, women beat up transwomen in women's toilets - that's happened often. But transwomen attacking women in women's toilets ... that's far rarer.

However yes, transwomen will keep using women's toilets, despite the law, because they'll assume - perhaps disgracefully in your view - that it's their right to have a pee without being beaten up.

@Helleofabore

How often do you think that's happened as compared to, say, a bona fide, born-as-a-woman woman - in a dress, to boot - beating up some other woman in a women's toilet? Not flashing at a woman, mind you, but actually beating one up?

I don’t know. But I would certainly love some statistics that prove what you say.

There was so much to unpack with last night’s posts I missed the gem contained within this quote of yours @Yesindeedydoodey.

So, I can only interpret this as you admitting that there is a prevalence of males ‘flashing’ at women in women’s toilets. Your admitting it happens and, by your assertion that there are so many females beating up males who access the female toilets, we can take it you accept it happens often.

Well, that admission is something at least.

Of course, you realise flashing, or any type of indecent exposure, is of course sex abuse and very harmful to women and girls. And it is accepted as a gateway crime leading on to crimes that are increasingly even more harmful to women and girls.

And it also at times includes that other sex crime, public masturbation. Another male dominated crime with recent prosecutions in both Ireland (where the male was also a cross dresser, which you know is included under the trans umbrella) and Australia this week.

And the growing porn sector of males (some, but not all, who identify as women) committing sex acts in female toilets with children’s voices clearly in the background. I am happy to provide the link to the twitter thread for this, but won’t link it in this post because it tends to get reported and, subsequently, deleted.

It is however, very, very easy to find. In fact, trans porn is widely available on twitter even. Surprisingly, this content is rarely placed behind the restricted ‘label’ that twitter requires. So it means it is easily accessed by children who we all know are using twitter below the minimum age restriction. (But that is for another thread topic).

So, your breezy Not flashing at a woman, mind you, but actually beating one up? was indeed a very interesting distinction to your post. Very enlightening and very much focuses a spotlight to your intentions to distract with misinformation and dismissal, knowing that even you have to acknowledge that the prevalence of males exposing their penises in women’s toilets cannot be denied.

Oh, and before you come back with ‘women are charged with public masturbation crimes’ (I recently saw this going around twitter as a ‘gotcha’), If you plan on asserting this, please provide the statistics to prove this.

(Again, statistics from official sources or verified from independent sources that can be traced and checked)

So, your breezy Not flashing at a woman, mind you, but actually beating one up? was indeed a very interesting distinction to your post.

It really was.