Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Of course it's not true and for someone to say that without even looking into it is not just stupid, but prejudiced. What's he saying, black, Asian and/or working class women, and men, are all the same and all have the same opinions, and can't analyse the situation for themselves?

I'm not even very active on Twitter but I know of many working class, black, Asian, mixed-race and upper-class women who are clearly GC on there as well as many men, and a number of these are absolutely at the forefront of raising awareness and bringing legal challenges.

To those listed already I'd add Sister Outrider, Jess Taylor, Onjali Rauf, Julie Bindel, James Dreyfus, Jack Appleby, Chimamamda, and a tour around twitter will find you many more - and that's just those who are publicly GC, I know lots more among friends.

And like PPs I know of a TON of white middle class TRAs, allies and in particular, those who identify as non-binary.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

OP I would just love your friend to trundle around say for example Boston (the lincolnshire one) Middlesbrough, Chatham (I was born there) & Wolverhampton with photos of alex Drummond, Laurel Hubbard,& Danielle muscato Abd ask them if they’re a) male or female & b) which changing rooms they should be in

He’s living in an utter bubble which he can afford to do because as always none of this affects him

I'd also like Penny 'TWAW' Mordaunt MP, a white middle-class woman, to tour her own constituency of Portsmouth North - places like Paulsgrove - with those photos and ask the same questions.

It's white and ethnic minority working-class women and men and children who'd tell her where to get off. Which is why she doesn't do it.

Furthermore I don't think it's OK to write off middle-class women as if they don't matter at all. Classic woke male shite. "Oh it's just middle class women, so who cares?" It's not, but even if it was, why wouldn't their voices matter? Bet he doesn't say middle-class men don't matter. Arse.

I think TWAW has had much more of a foothold in middle class working environments. That's why it's getting the backlash from middle class women - they're the ones coming across it.

Even it it were true (which it isn't) I really object to dismissing any group of people on the basis of their 'race'. Identity politics is toxic, divisive and based on utter nonsense. Any argument predicated on it can go straight in the bin.

No in fact almost all the GC people I know are working class

I am a working class woman, believe me, plenty of us are concerned with it, every woman I know is concerned about sex based rights being removed.

I don't often comment on the threads because I don't feel smart or articulate enough but I've been following this stuff for years now as has my circle of working class friends and my fil, the working class men around me care very much too.

my line is, and to my DD also,

I'm middle aged, middle class but due to divorce on very low income.

Due to having a disability, very little income security and not much space in my life, I don't really have a sexuality at the moment, I'm a single parent.

So I say to anyone who is listening, the moment i get to define my sexuality and someone respects my rights to do that is the moment I get to accord anyone else the freedom to do so.

Equal rights of all, I feel.

At least now you know what a manipulative piece of work he is. Thats not a good faith argument, is it? Its a tactic designed to shut you up.
Does he tend to be controlling in other ways?

Usually there is an age dig when sidelining the opinion of someone GC.
"The young are open minded, it's middle aged women" I am WC I am GC.

Oh and you could ask him what he thinks about the impact of self-ID policies and men in women's spaces on Muslim women, many of whom are Asian or black and working class. Plenty of them have a problem with it for reasons related to religion and culture. Perhaps they don't matter either? How very... progressive.

@GCAcademic

I'm not white. How dare this man decide what I am happy with? He can get to fuck.

Exactly - my feelings too!

I'd like your mate to pop into my school (and all the other schools close by) and tell all the Muslim girls that they must accept 'gender neutral' changing rooms, showers and toilets. He can finish by addressing all the parents and explaining why this is in the interests of their daughters.

I'll watch.

The places spearheading the push to mixed sex toilets are the most white and middle class places of all - central London theatres and arts venues. The industries / fields where the pronoun trend is most commonly encountered are very white and middle class - arts, media, publishing, tech, universities, and I've seen it more often used by women in those fields than men. The schools in my locality where friends and family report 'loads' of girls becoming 'non binary' or 'trans' are the middle-class, fee paying ones in sought-after postcodes.

I'm getting sick of 'gender neutral' being used when they mean mixed sex. Gender neutral is absolutely meaningless.

I'm sick of men fobbing us off like were silly for being concerned because none of this affects them and in many ways benefits them.

The whole middle class, middle age, white women argument is being used by middle class, middle aged, white males to shut us up and deflect attention while they pretend to be the most oppressed people in the world.

I’m a white middle class woman, I’ve been groped and flashed in a gender neutral changing room (all cubicles).

Why does my experience matter less than working class women?

It might be worth asking your friend to read this article by Duncan as it describes his experience as a gay man, 'How I became a Trans Rights Activist — then turned “Gender Critical”'
uncommongroundmedia.com/how-i-became-a-trans-rights-activist-then-turned-gender-critical/

(I've no idea if Duncan is white and/or middle class and its irrelevant)

I’m working class and GC.

Anyway. Which ‘side’ cares about the largely working class and vulnerable populations of female prisoners? Which side cares about rights of women of certain religions whose freedom might be negatively affected by men in women’s spaces? It sure as hell ain’t the ‘TWAW so shut up no debate’ brigade.

Well I suppose if we’re going to dismiss the views of the white mc women can we ignore the views of the white mc men….now who’s left?

My experience is the complete opposite.

White MC women typically fall over themselves to verify their progressive credentials.

All evidence I've seen (anecdotes and actual data) suggests WC and BAME people (including women) tend to be more socially conservative on a whole raft if issues, including this.

They have less of a voice in the media, so your friend is able to project his thinking into them.

No, I'm black and I don't have any black or mixed race family or friends who believe TWAW or TMAM.

We are all however too scared to discuss this in our professional life or on SM.

he obviously has a very special crystal ball into which he can gaze and determine what entire groups of individuals think - and also divine exactly what might happen in any given self ID situation. Lucky old him. I wonder if he got it from Diagon Alley?

Ordinary woman.

Mixed race family.

He’s an idiot

Grew up on council estates, have been homeless & lived in a tenement. I’ve not been in prison but know women who have. Women in prison know TWAM and don’t tend to be white middle class.

But separately why does is he dismissing white middle class women? they have as much right to a view as anyone else. I’d take a guess he’s a white middle class male and he assumes his opinions on something that will never affect him are valid

I never call myself or my friends working class. Hate that phrase

We are just people