Is it only white middle class women who are GC?

[Ziegfeld]

I recently summoned courage to have “the talk” with an old friend who is gay. I wanted to know his current thoughts on sex based rights, and I thought (as we are old friends) even if we disagreed we could have a civilised conversation about it.

Unfortunately I think he called me transphobic about five minutes into the conversation when I asked, so if we say let’s have self ID, how do we tell whether someone genuinely believes themselves to be a TW or is a man simply announcing he is a woman solely for the purposes of accessing women-only spaces for bad intent. ( His answers to that were “well we need safeguarding” and “there are hardly any TWs, this isn’t a real concern” and “well ideally we should all just have gender neutral changing rooms”)

Some more things were said by both of us which I won’t go into here because I am sure we’ve all heard them before.

But then he said that it’s only white middle class women (like me) who have a problem with self ID and allowing TW access to women’s spaces. He said that working class women and women of colour have no problem at all with it.

I don’t think this is true - look at Allison Bailey for example. But I would be interested to know what other MNers think. Is this a race and class issue? Or is it that white middle class women tend to have more platforms to speak out than other women?

Funny how people say that (as a complete argument) but then when you say - well... Linda Bellos, Alison Bailey, Raquel Rosario Sanchez - just off the top of my head, even WiSpa woman, then it’s ‘nya nya nya, why white women waiting for clack women to speak up for them’ (yes ‘them’ eh?).

Women speaking about women’s issues - pretty universal issues for women: sexual harassment, job and education, pay gap, pregnancy and childbirth... this isn’t a class thing, it’s not a colour thing- it’s a woman thing.

I think he’s trying to say that only white MC women are privileged enough to bother with what he sees as a tiny tiny risk. Ie that white MC women have nothing else to worry about so are having a moan about this, but WOC/WC women are rightly more preoccupied with issues of racial
discrimination, social inequality etc.

The friend in question is a middle aged white man, Russell Group educated, works in the third sector.

Yeah it's bullshit. There are loads of black gender critical women on Twitter - absolutely loads. Also i'm working clas AF and I don't know anyone in my circle that believes men can literally become women or belong in women's bathrooms, prisons or sports.

Well, as a woman he can definitely speak for all... oh...

Maybe they are too scared to ‘take on’ working class women (another stereotype) or non white women (and there’s another) in case they square up and tell them to piss off - because we are all so mouthy and pushy, eh?

Has he not seen the White Wednesday protests in Iran? Not white, all classes, all women.

The friend in question is a middle aged white man, Russell Group educated, works in the third sector.

Uncommon Ground Media
'Woke Blokes and the Abuse of Women'
March 19, 2021 by Dr Em

(extract)
Control
The woke bloke, like the abuser behind closed doors, is seeking to control women and feels that it is his right to control others. Thus, he expects to have the last word and believes he is justified in punishing those who would challenge him. As Bancroft outlines, ‘the abuser gives himself permission to take action on the basis of his beliefs’ and ‘a large part of his abusiveness comes in the form of punishments used to retaliate against you for resisting his control’.17 This control is often ‘exercised through wearing the woman down with constant low-level complaints, rather than through yelling or barking orders. The abuser may repeatedly make negative comments’.18 It is through chronic mistreatment, which in an online setting takes the form of a pile-on or the frequent messaging that ‘terfs’/transphobes are scum etc., that the victim begins to doubt herself and her confidence is impinged. The domestic abuser will physically isolate his victim through getting her to cut ties with friends and family, controlling who she speaks to, controlling when and why she leaves the home, and often moving her to a different location. Online, this is what is happening with, for example, the periodic attempts by men to shutdown Mumsnet. Controlling men hate that there is a space where women can talk to each other and offer support to each other. Nothing poses a more direct threat to their control and manipulation than women speaking to each other. The sisterly support can clear the fog of male abuse so that the woman recognise it for what it is.

Another tactic the controlling and abusive male will use in the online world is to brand the woman and make it clear that anyone who interacts with the woman will share in her branding. This is how accusations of transphobia, ‘anti-trans’ or ‘Terf’ are designed to work. This is how public declarations of ‘she is crazy’ or public punishments are designed to work. It is a message to other women that they will share in her social suffering if they stand to close. As well as punishing her for perceived transgressions it serves to isolate the woman until she begs forgiveness, promises to stop thinking for herself and can be controlled." (continues)

uncommongroundmedia.com/woke-blokes-and-the-abuse-of-women/

but WOC/WC women are rightly more preoccupied with issues of racial
discrimination, social inequality etc

Ha! It's quite possible to be concerned about multiple things at the same time.
I can't speak for others, but I'm far more bothered about the erosion of women's rights and spaces and definitions than I am about racial stuff because it is universal and far reaching and affects me on a much deeper level. Gender ideology offends and upsets me on a visceral level unlike anything racists can come up with. I am a woman first and a skin colour second.

@NonnyMouse1337

*but WOC/WC women are rightly more preoccupied with issues of racial discrimination, social inequality etc*

Ha! It's quite possible to be concerned about multiple things at the same time.
I can't speak for others, but I'm far more bothered about the erosion of women's rights and spaces and definitions than I am about racial stuff because it is universal and far reaching and affects me on a much deeper level. Gender ideology offends and upsets me on a visceral level unlike anything racists can come up with. I am a woman first and a skin colour second.

This! So your friend is basically saying that non white women and wc women are incapable of thinking about more than one thing at a time .

I can think about many things at once... as students we were thinking about (off the top of my head): feminism, anti-apartheid, nestle, Greenham (Faslane, etc), education cuts (no ifs no buts, stop the education cuts) as well as animal and environmental issues...and AIDs of couse... then there was Section 28, poll tax...

...and what are the kiddies and students all hot and bothered about these days? ‘pronouns and the literal violence of getting them wrong’...

Gimme a break!

@faithfulbird20

Because he’s a man and therefore more qualified than women to speak about women’s issues. Men know everything and are all Super genius. Any man at any time can speak for all women.

The level of entitlement that men have to think that they can speak for women amazes me!

The friend in question is a middle aged white man, Russell Group educated, works in the third sector.

I also work in the third sector and these men are ten a penny. Pontificating he/hims who, deep down, don't respect women at all but are clever enough to hide their misogyny and disgust.

A pox on them.

My ex was/is one of these wokebros too. I think they have a need to think of themselves as a good person, modern, lefty, feminist, right-on etc but it’s at odds with deep misogyny that they don’t understand or recognise because they haven’t examined the sexism and patriarchy inherent in how they were raised, and don’t see the non-level playing field they benefit from, because it’s generally more subtle than their idea of sexism and patriarchy, which is thinks like burkas and women not having the vote.

I have a friend who has a husband like this too and he told me in a very mansplaining tone that feminism is not needed in the uk but that there are some parts of the world where “women are actually second-class citizens”. I had a few things to say in response :o

Guess who insists on making all the major decisions in his house, gets to go cycling all the time while his wife carries the can, is soft on his DS and hard on his DD, and has an anger problem involving punching walls and road rage.

Trans issues are perfect for men like this because they grant them the opportunity for surface do-goodery and virtue signalling, while actually being about undermining women’s rights and being given social permission to hate on mouthy women.

Guess who insists on making all the major decisions in his house, gets to go cycling all the time while his wife carries the can, is soft on his DS and hard on his DD, and has an anger problem involving punching walls and road rage.

Resource thread with pdf link to Lundy Bancroft's book, 'Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Thanks rowantrees, yes I know :( I do think she’ll leave one day.

QueenPeary It's good that she has a friend who knows.

"
And again, it's a shit argument. If a burglar is determined to burgle my house they probably can. If a murderer is determined to kill me they probably can. Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No."

Fine - make the laws against transwomen using women's bathrooms even stronger, then. Make them as strong as you like. In reality, they won't make a bit of difference, will they? Attacks by transwomen in women's toilets are a vanishingly rare occurrence and nobody can think of a sensible way of policing it.

The law doesn't like to be made to look like an ass, though. Those involved in making it try to be careful in that way. Thus there isn't a law against, say, leopards using women's toilets, on account of leopards very rarely break into women's toilets (in the UK, anyway) and even if they did, the law could do nothing to stop it. Predators are like that. ;)

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this (largely non-) issue. We're being asked to think of a predatory sort of man deliberately dressing up in women's clothing, with a wig and some make up too, presumably, for some reason believing that a women's toilet is the best place to target women. Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

But OK, let's assume there are such men. We're thinking of a daylight toilet attack, since we could assume that at night, when there are very few people around, and the toilet in question is one of the few that's unlocked at night, there'd be no need for a man to disguise himself as a woman. So: there's this man, dressed as a woman, who attacks a woman in a women's toilet ... and assumes his disguise won't be noted and reported ... and the police won't be able to pick him out in a crowd as he runs off afterwards (hopefully for his sake not in heels)?

No, I don't think so. I'm not a predatory man but if I were ... to be honest, I actually can't think of sillier way of doing my preying on women.

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this

I agree, we should stop pretending that we don't know what sex is and that adult humans are either women or men. Also that a female sex based service or space should obviously exclude male people and that sex-based Safeguarding should be upheld to the same level and to the same level of clarity as other legislation and/or policies.

because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse

Do you have evidence of assaults on TW in women's toilets?

Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

Predatory abusive men will go to considerable lengths to embed themselves in any situation where they have access to to their intended targets be they children, women or Vulnerable Adults. The idea that there is a predatory men are a type, identifyable by their T shirt choices is incredibly naive.

I would urge anyone holding such opinions to spend some time reading the evidence from the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse to recognise and respect the backgrounds and modus operandi of predatory abusers.

www.iicsa.org.uk/

LangCleg wrote Thu 21-Feb-19

"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation?pg=12

**identifiable

@Yesindeedydoodey

I suspect you are deliberately misreading what people are saying here but the worry is NOT about would be male miscreants going to the trouble of putting on wigs to gain access to women’s spaces. It’s about effectively removing all boundaries to women’s spaces through self ID. What my friend (who is pro self ID) says he wants is gender neutral facilities - which is a logical outcome if you allow anyone to identify as anything to go anywhere. So there would be no safe spaces at all for women - or TW for that matter.

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

Still pushing the 'women do it too' angle I see.

Have we covered off the 'but the males who identify as women will simply keep using them' point yet? The one that basically states that those males have no respect for women or laws or social mores despite stating that they just want to pee. That is always an interesting one to see. Some prominent activists push that particular point at lot.

@R0wantrees

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this

I agree, we should stop pretending that we don't know what sex is and that adult humans are either women or men. Also that a female sex based service or space should obviously exclude male people and that sex-based Safeguarding should be upheld to the same level and to the same level of clarity as other legislation and/or policies.

Yes, wouldn't that be nice.

If those males acknowledged that they are indeed males, and respected females by not accessing single sex spaces set up for safeguarding purposes.

@Yesindeedydoodey

" And again, it's a shit argument. If a burglar is determined to burgle my house they probably can. If a murderer is determined to kill me they probably can. Does that mean we should therefore give up all laws against these things, security and measures to protect ourselves? No."

Fine - make the laws against transwomen using women's bathrooms even stronger, then. Make them as strong as you like. In reality, they won't make a bit of difference, will they? Attacks by transwomen in women's toilets are a vanishingly rare occurrence and nobody can think of a sensible way of policing it.

The law doesn't like to be made to look like an ass, though. Those involved in making it try to be careful in that way. Thus there isn't a law against, say, leopards using women's toilets, on account of leopards very rarely break into women's toilets (in the UK, anyway) and even if they did, the law could do nothing to stop it. Predators are like that. ;)

I think some common sense and realism needs urgently to be injected into this (largely non-) issue. We're being asked to think of a predatory sort of man deliberately dressing up in women's clothing, with a wig and some make up too, presumably, for some reason believing that a women's toilet is the best place to target women. Really, think of that: predatory sorts of men are generally the sorts who won't even wear pink tee shirts for the 'shame of it'.

But OK, let's assume there are such men. We're thinking of a daylight toilet attack, since we could assume that at night, when there are very few people around, and the toilet in question is one of the few that's unlocked at night, there'd be no need for a man to disguise himself as a woman. So: there's this man, dressed as a woman, who attacks a woman in a women's toilet ... and assumes his disguise won't be noted and reported ... and the police won't be able to pick him out in a crowd as he runs off afterwards (hopefully for his sake not in heels)?

No, I don't think so. I'm not a predatory man but if I were ... to be honest, I actually can't think of sillier way of doing my preying on women.

Frankly, if you really want transwomen to be kept out of women's toilets, your best bet isn't the law, it's to rely on transphobic women - because cases of women beating up transwomen in women's toilets are somewhat less rare than the reverse. That's perhaps why transwomen avoid using public toilets for men or women as much as they possibly can.

And what of women's dignity? And religious beliefs? And simply not wanting to see dicks because they have had traumatic experiences?

Its ok for women to be offended and triggered but not transwomen....

... Why is that?