Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DM article - interview with female attacked in prison.

173 replies

DevonTF · 23/07/2021 22:58

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html.

Article in the DM - interview with a female prisoner assaulted in prison by a female identifying male. Awful to read, but it is showing the reality of this.

OP posts:
KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 24/07/2021 17:01

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes I imagine it may possibly be more. The Downsview unit was for GRC holding biological males considered too dangerous for the general population, wasn't it?
Correct. Except how can their level of risk be adequately assessed without the use of the risk assessment tool for male sexual offenders? My own opinion is that 'too dangerous' has to be proved via the accumulation of assaults and sexual assaults on female prisoners.

Another snippet of joy to brighten your Saturday:

Although there had been discussions about using the Downview Unit for 'too dangerous' female offenders, the MoJ decided against this and the decision was made that female prisoners should not also be held in the unit. However, the JR judgement refers to the fact that female prisoners have been held there for the purposes of isolating during covid and at the same time as prisoners of the male sex with a GRC. They were held on separate landings.

This is an incredibly worrying precedent. Now it has been 'proved' that females can also be held in the unit, will the proposal to open it up to female prisoners who are 'too dangerous' be revisited?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 24/07/2021 17:03

It's possibly worth recalling that some celebrity transwomen (Kellie Maloney) have a backstory of violence and domestic abuse before they transitioned, irrespective of whether there's a GRC or even any charge.

There are the transwomen who have been convicted of affray or assault in their backstory.

It would be interesting to know how the numbers are holding up relative to the appropriate comparator population.

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 24/07/2021 17:03

@RedDogsBeg

Aren't there also non-GRC holders who are also violent and sex offenders within the female estate because the MoJ said they don't ask for proof just take the word of the person stating they are a woman? I mean no criminal would ever lie would they?
Non-GRC holders are initially allocated to the male estate and can then apply for transfer to female estate. Conviction and offending history are taken into considerations, as well as anatomy. One would hope that this would mean that those convicted of violent and sexual offences cannot be transferred to the female estate. But.....
Redapplewreath · 24/07/2021 17:07

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes I imagine it may possibly be more. The Downsview unit was for GRC holding biological males considered too dangerous for the general population, wasn't it?
It was. However from that article, permitting any restrictions on these biological males in view of their offending record, behaviour and choices in order to protect females was considered by said biological males to be a breach of their rights. Only access to biological females would do.

And apparently the MoJ haven't heard of the word 'no'. Or realised that biologically female people are human too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/07/2021 17:15

However, the JR judgement refers to the fact that female prisoners have been held there for the purposes of isolating during covid and at the same time as prisoners of the male sex with a GRC. They were held on separate landings.

Angry
RedDogsBeg · 24/07/2021 18:33

It's a very big BUT, isn't it KSS, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

RedDogsBeg · 24/07/2021 18:42

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

It's possibly worth recalling that some celebrity transwomen (Kellie Maloney) have a backstory of violence and domestic abuse before they transitioned, irrespective of whether there's a GRC or even any charge.

There are the transwomen who have been convicted of affray or assault in their backstory.

It would be interesting to know how the numbers are holding up relative to the appropriate comparator population.

It's quite remarkable for such a small percentage of the population how such a high percentage of them have this as a common backstory.Hmm

There's a demonstration in London today and the lovely Alan Baker/Sarah Jane is there topless holding a sign which reads 'Be Trans Do Crime', knowing this persons history quite the appropriate signage, this is the same person who held a 'Kill JK Rowling' sign at a previous demonstration.

BatmansBat · 24/07/2021 18:48

Has any of the TWAW posters appeared to talk about this? I am genuinely interested in their perspective.

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2021 18:51

I saw one on the McMillan thread so definitely about. Just not engaging with this issue. Funny that....

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 24/07/2021 19:01

There's a demonstration in London today and the lovely Alan Baker/Sarah Jane is there topless holding a sign which reads 'Be Trans Do Crime', knowing this persons history quite the appropriate signage, this is the same person who held a 'Kill JK Rowling' sign at a previous demonstration.

Pictures here - archive of the Twitter thread below: archive.is/1OBtl

twitter.com/theedijester/status/1418932337514004482

archive of DM piece about Baker for anyone who doesn't want to click or finds this more readable: archive.is/HyPob

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383992/amp/Violent-inmate-Alan-Baker-given-10-000-sex-change-NHS.html

RedDogsBeg · 24/07/2021 19:08

@BatmansBat

Has any of the TWAW posters appeared to talk about this? I am genuinely interested in their perspective.
Surprisingly not, I would have thought this was the perfect thread for them to impart their wisdom on. I too would be very interested in their defence of this, I mean they do have a defence for this don't they?
R0wantrees · 24/07/2021 19:20

some of the relevant threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4212959-Inmates-say-guards-have-warned-them-that-men-are-coming-and-to-expect-sexual-violence

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3840659-Half-of-all-male-prisoners-in-Scotland-who-identify-as-women-have-been-transferred-to-womens-jails

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3824781-Lisa-Nandy-says-child-rapists-should-be-in-women-s-prisons-if-they-identify-as-female

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3826608-As-of-5pm-Dawn-Butler-says-trans-women-should-never-be-put-in-women-s-jails

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3225546-Self-ID-and-womens-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3192486-Lord-Patel-Karen-Jones-thread-anyone-want-to-go-to-House-of-Lords-to-talk-to-Lord-Patel

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3337063-RESOURCE-THREAD-Transwomen-in-Women-s-Prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3625439-The-Times-Feminists-celebrate-U-turn-on-self-identification-in-Scotland-as-women-s-prisons-review-trans-policy

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4298913-Convicted-paedophile-set-the-rules-for-allowing-men-into-womens-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3369090-To-ask-you-to-care-that-ANOTHER-paedophile-MALE-who-targeted-girls-who-claims-to-be-a-woman-has-been-moved-to-a-womans-prison-Having-got-a-GRC-IN-PRISON-FFS

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410111-Canada-Trans-woman-sent-to-womens-prison-for-sexually-molesting-her-3-year-old-daughter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3359493-Karen-White-case-how-MN-can-help-build-political-pressure-for-change

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3584721-Letters-to-prison-magazine-Inside-Time-by-two-trans-inmates

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3499621-5-2-15-Government-Response-to-Petition-Review-rules-that-allow-male-prisoners-who-identify-as-female-in-womens-prisons

NiceGerbil · 24/07/2021 19:38

Bottom line is and I'm sorry to say this

Men are important. Their needs/ wants are paramount.

They must must must be given the benefit of the doubt whatever the topic is.

And are much more often treated as whole complex individuals by society than women who are often 2D stereotypes with zero inner life, whose views stem from sheep like following of what they hear combined with an emotional instability that colours everything they say and do.

Our political process, authorities etc were set up by men for men and on the whole that's not changed.

Men tend to empathise with other men (understandably) but often women hardly enter the corner of the picture. Men are not taught my media society anything to even think about what their decisions mean for women/ children, they are socialised way more to act for themselves and their group.

Women are socialised to see men as people and understand and give the benefit of the doubt etc as well but naturally (but by no means universally) have an understanding and empathy with other women.

This is pretty key.

Those who say certain males should be in prison with women for their protection are putting themselves entirely in the shoes of men. That is their whole focus.

Women who say no are putting themselves in the shoes of the women in prison.
Importantly this is not, at all. Seen as what's happening.
Because while women may say that's why. Men know that women invariably have ulterior motives. That we are emotional and manipulative. That we often want to hurt men for no good reason.

On here I've seen loads of times. Why do you care about women in prison? That's not the real reason is it. It's a cover for something else...

See this attitude also in...

Rape- rape myths, false accusations, reports for reasons of revenge etc

Street harassment/ 'minor' sex offences. Making a fuss about nothing. Wanting special treatment. Don't like men.

Sex offences in schools. He's young! Doesn't know what he's doing. Hormones. Give him a chance. Don't rock the boat. Don't make a fuss.

Loads more.

So there you go.

No one EVER should have even considered putting male inmates in the female estate. Let alone sex offenders.

And yet here we are.

With a judge saying well yes obviously women will be afraid and assaults will happen. But balance that against the benefits for the vulnerable males. It's a price worth paying for their safety and comfort.

Note that trans wings etc have had human rights cases mean the males go back in the female estate. Safety and comfort? My arse.

And human rights as we have learnt from amnesty etc. Actually means male rights.

So angry.

RedDogsBeg · 24/07/2021 19:50

Abso-fucking-lutely NiceGerbil. I am too am very, very angry.

teawamutu · 25/07/2021 08:47

My blood pressure didn't need this on a Sunday morning but fuck, Gerbil, you've nailed it.

That point about women's rights always being challenged for an ulterior motive is so insightful. No, I really am concerned for women locked up with rapists.

Human rights are men's rights.

Now want to ditch the Sunday roast plans and go heave a few bricks through windows, suffragette-style.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/07/2021 09:35

Top post, Gerbil. I was thinking about something vaguely similar earlier. (I'm stating the obvious in my ramblings below, but it's taken me decades to grasp this stuff. When I was a young woman in the 80s I mistakenly thought feminism had won all the battles, so I didn't have to worry about any of this stuff. How wrong I was.)

When women were grudgingly given the right to do various things that had previously been reserved for men - higher education, jobs, professions, voting, serving on juries, becoming Councillors/MPs, etc - it seems to have been done on the unspoken condition that women should draw as little attention as possible to their femaleness - in other words, they should try to be as like the men as possible.

We didn't re-make society to acknowledge that there are two sexes and both are important, but that there are significant differences between us, which need to be allowed for. Most people have unthinkingly continued to accept that the male version of human is the default and that women's physical differences are a nuisance, more often than not. We are 50% of the species, but we don't have the clout or the assertiveness to insist that being female is not a problem - that women and girls are fine just the way they are.

Almost all women menstruate at some point, and go through the menopause. Most women will experience pregnancy and childbirth, many will breastfeed. Women who make it obvious they're doing these female things have lost out at work. Much better to pretend that in work time none of these things are happening. You probably still won't get that big promotion or secondment, but at least you won't be singled out for redundancy.

YouSetTheTone · 25/07/2021 10:54

I think we need to ask this question to as many people as possible:
What would happen if Wayne Couzens now said that he identifies as a woman and (s)he requests a transfer to the female estate?

As the law stands this request would be granted wouldn’t it?

If people think this would be wrong then they must see that the law needs to change?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 25/07/2021 10:59

When women were grudgingly given the right

The pandemic has shown this to be legal concessions that some understood could and would be withdrawn at any time it would seem expedient to men.

rabbitwoman · 25/07/2021 11:09

[quote doorornottodoor]Have you seen Rhona Hotchkiss on this? Ex governor of Cornton Vale. She’s fantastic

m.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfTBEXqGQM[/quote]
This lady is fantastic!!

I would love to see her go head to head with Mharai Black..... In fact, I would love to have seen this lady being asked to address the HoL about trans women in prison instead of Karen Green.....

In fact, as fantastic as these organisations are, why is this articulate, knowledgeable and funny lady speaking in a town hall in front of a few dozen people - she should be on Question Time.....

doorornottodoor · 25/07/2021 11:10

@rabbitwoman I know. I’d love to see more of her. She’s very vocal on Twitter.

rabbitwoman · 25/07/2021 11:35

(I meant Karen Jones, not Karen Green....)

R0wantrees · 25/07/2021 12:04

A Woman's Place is on the Platform: Anne Ruzylo (23 November 2017)

Anne Ruzylo is a former prison officer and spoke out about the impact on female prisoners held with dangerous male offenders as well as how she was targetted by Labour party members.

R0wantrees · 25/07/2021 12:15

Manchester 'We Need to Talk About Women' meeting
28th September 2018

Anne Ruzylo speech includes observations from serving prison officers:

New posts on this thread. Refresh page