Self ID and women's prisons

[RosenbergW]

I saw this shared on twitter earlier. What struck me (especially given ongoing discussion here) was how difficult it was for the two speakers to find language to talk about the issue. They have to hedge around and check themselves repeatedly lest someone take offence. It simply is not possible to talk respectfully but openly about anything to do with the impact of trans self ID on women. The fear of drawing down abuse and retribution is so massive our MPs and even hardened journalists don't want to touch the subject, let alone give it proper analysis and reflection. This indicates to me that trans politics is the greatest current threat to women's rights, opportunities and lives.

Please watch this short video. If we think that women out here are fearful of trans males but unable to speak about it, how much worse must it be for women in prison?

RosenbergW
Thanks for posting I see what you mean. Its something that concerns me a good deal -especially having having worked with female prisoners in the past and heard soem of their stories. Prisons are a scary places without having something extra to worry about. Who are the people and where is the discussion taking place do you know?

It was from a tweet by Venice Allan @signorella:

@DavidTCDavies asks @andreaalbutt, the president of @PGAPrisons some questions at the Welsh Affairs Committee

17/04/18 according to a later tweet by Venice.

Sorry I am really not getting how to do bolds and italics and videos..

Agreed. Thank you to David Davies for continuing to raise this issue.

Watching this, and looking at the fairplayforwomen site's work on this has made me cry.

Saying a man can become a woman because he feels like one and then ignoring mixing male and female biology without female consent makes NO SENSE.

Prisons are sex segregated due to biological SEX. Gender identity doesn't change your biological sex.

Self-ID would any man whatever his gender identity can get moved to a female prison just by saying the magic words 'I feel like I am a woman'.

But the women in the prison would have no magic words to protect themselves from having a man in their prison, would they?

absolutely wine

But the women in the prison would have no magic words to protect themselves from having a man in their prison, would they?

At this stage I don't think women have access to any words at all to protect themselves from men who want to identify as women.

Which is why it is so important that spaces like Mumsnet allow us to express ourselves fully and take back language that has been stolen from us.

Interesting twitter thread on the utter imbalance of money and lobbying power these women have against forced sharing of their prisons with violent male sex offenders, based on those men's say so.

mobile.twitter.com/helensaxby11/status/986519273374932992

In Ireland, despite self ID, people are put in the prisons of their birth gender. What about other countries?

I read yesterday on twitter of a man who'd raped a baby who has has gender surgery paid for by the state in Canada. I hope to god he isn't now in a women's prison

There seems to be very weight given to the rights and needs of women in prisons... just as important policies committed to the inclusion of those who are transgender seem often suggest 'education' for those girls and women who have concerns and are affected.

A source said: “The rest of them shouldn’t have bothered even entering. (Miss Fitness)
“It was surreal. Everybody knew it wasn’t very fair, but nobody was allowed to say it.
The women inmates have had to accept that Stewart is being allowed to live as a woman, despite not having had surgery.
“That means she is in the showers at the same time as other inmates, which some have found quite awkward.
“She has the right to determine her own gender.
“That is fine because the vast majority of the women believe in inclusiveness and equality.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/outrage-transgender-prisoner-living-woman-12022675

(Successful) Judicial review of pre-operative transgender woman transfer to Women's Estate (2009)

The only evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, who has also known the Claimant for many years, explained why living in role in female accommodation was required:

it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

I feel sick when I read that bit about the women having to have him in their showers with them, followed by the 'women who enjoy conflict' from that odious man. We're just their pawns.

And in Canada more than 1/3 of female prisoners are Aboriginal women (First Nations, Metis and Inuit amongst others). They are doubly discriminated against, have very little voice or power, have often had extremely traumatic experiences of the care system and the rate of sexual abuse, addiction and self harm is overwhelming.

No one will listen to them. No one. Despite Justin DudeBro and his 'feminist' credentials.

I was interested at the answer to the question about female prison guards - basically they said "well we have male guards as well". That's not much use if the prisoner refuses a male guard - if it goes the way Canada has, self-declared trans people with male genitalia can choose who is to search them

www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/federal-transgender-inmates-to-be-housed-addressed-according-to-gender-identity/article37802623/

Interesting twitter thread on transmen's choices of prison, which should surely also be taken account. Some saying they wish to be held in the female estate, one saying this was refused:

mobile.twitter.com/WomenCanSee/status/986478933733343232

Although I guess as they are going to be mixed sex either way if run on self-ID principles...

That's not much use if the prisoner refuses a male guard - if it goes the way Canada has, self-declared trans people with male genitalia can choose who is to search

Outside of the prison system, the 'right' to be searched by a female security guard / bouncer etc was raised by LM who made a public complaint to a nightclub. LM complained that they had been discriminated against.

The issues for female prison officers /security were raised here:

A notorious killer who strangled his cellmate with shoe-laces is living behind bars as a woman.
Daniel Eastwood, 32, has asked bosses at Scotland's maximum security jail to call him "Sophie" from now on.
But the move has provoked chaos with staff at Shotts prison, in Lanarkshire, unsure over whether female or male guards should be searching Eastwood during routine checks
"It makes our officers' jobs more difficult and there have been issues raised by guards who have to do things like searches.
"It has the potential to be misused by people as a way of getting moved jails."
Last year it was revealed murderer Eastwood, from England, terrified a security guard so much that she quit her job.
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/notorious-hannibal-lecter-jnr-killer-12007046

It's infuriating the way these extremely serious issues are being debated as if people can change sex. It is not possible to change sex. Our politicians need to understand that when they open up sex segregated space to those who ID as the opposite sex they are creating mixed sex spaces. The discussion should be about the practicalities and problems created if prisons become mixed sex. That's what they are doing and that's how it should be debated.

What's barely mentioned is the possible consequences for women and girls...