Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguides - is it a lost cause?

278 replies

iamruth · 15/06/2021 21:55

Having pulled both of my daughters out based on their switching of gender/sex and what Myself and my husband believe are strong safeguarding concerns as a result as well as the general erosion of girls’ rights as a result I’m wondering if it’s now a lost cause? Is there any chance at all of them being challenged or is that it now?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/11/2021 07:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/11/2021 08:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

drspouse · 23/11/2021 08:09

@CheeseMmmm

Twitter bio says scout leader though..?
I think the Guide stuff is new. But you can do both.
BettyFilous · 23/11/2021 08:15

I see the misogynist monitors are putting in an early shift and are already busy reporting. It’s always a tell what gets targeted for deletion.

Artichokeleaves · 23/11/2021 08:20

Quite. HQ and monitors rushing to protect someone doing something wholly inappropriate.

There's a point at which it's not possible to follow that road any more, and it's a long, long way behind us now. This is not excusable.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 23/11/2021 08:21

What was deleted? I missed that

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/11/2021 08:22

Irritatingly, I can't remember! I read what I thought was an excellent post in very concise terms and quoted it. For the life of me I can't think now what the forbidden words were.

BettyFilous · 23/11/2021 08:23

The usual stuff about A Giant Pink elephant in the room that no one is allowed to point out.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 23/11/2021 08:23

PM me?

Shedmistress · 23/11/2021 08:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

TedImgoingmad · 23/11/2021 08:38

GGUK aren't supposed to do any activities involving weapons being pointed at animals or people, IIRC. That's why we can't take girls to things like laser quest. So, scary gender stuff aside, this is a very poor message from a senior GG representative.

GG for Herts County has recently appointed a transman as LGBTQ+ Inclusion Officer with a very unusual name that corresponds with a Pinterest account full of violent memes. Took me about 5 minutes after reading the announcement of their appointment to find that account. I don't think any social media vetting is going on.

WholeClassKeptIn · 23/11/2021 08:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/11/2021 08:43

I know everybody's busy, overstretched etc etc, and Girlguiding membership is falling, so I imagine finances are stretched, but come on, vetting social media is not difficult to do and for any sensitive position should surely be routine.

TheLoneRager · 23/11/2021 08:44

I imagine membership will fall off a cliff after this so it's not exactly a positive commercial decision.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/11/2021 09:02

Regardless of the deletions, the questions still remain:
Is a person with this social media profile an appropriate person to work with children?
What due diligence does the GG carry out before appointing adults - especially to senior positions?
Were they aware and now that they are, what actions will they take?

Legitimate questions to ask of an organisation that works with children.

RoyalCorgi · 23/11/2021 09:09

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I know everybody's busy, overstretched etc etc, and Girlguiding membership is falling, so I imagine finances are stretched, but come on, vetting social media is not difficult to do and for any sensitive position should surely be routine.
The more frightening thought is that they did the vetting, but they just don't care.

It occurs to me that some of these organisations have been infiltrated at the very top by people who don't have children's best interests at heart.

Datun · 23/11/2021 09:17

@AnyOldPrion

It crossed my mind last night as I lay in bed, that this could only happen BECAUSE people are willfully insisting that people are something they aren’t.

I mean, if you had decided, as a group serving girls, to introduce men as leaders, you’d do it with enormous caution. You’d create new rules to ensure that those men were very carefully checked, even if you didn’t make it obvious you were doing so. You’d be aware that what you were doing was potentially contentious, and you’d make sure when you did start the introduction, that any men you introduced were squeaky clean. You’d probably do extra checks on their social media, because you’d want the whole thing to go without a hitch.

Only here they’re presumably intent on treating this person “like any other woman”. It goes without saying that you can’t do any extra checks, because that would be an insult and you’d be transphobic for even thinking such a thing.

When you are living in denial of what you’re doing, it’s then that you’re really going to make some spectacular cock-ups. And this looks like one.

The bigger problem is if they had kept their social media private, it would be the same person but no one would be any the wiser.

It really is Boulshired. But part of the reason we’re where we are, and part of the reason the wheels are coming off, is because any decent man, however he identified, would pause for a moment before rushing in to a girl’s organisation. I mean why would anyone male choose a girl’s organisation when there is a perfectly good mixed-sex organisation where you could volunteer to work with children? That in itself is a huge red flag, that girlguiding have tossed aside because they are so keen to show their open-mindedness.

I can just about understand someone transitioning from male to female wanting to join (for example) the WI. If you want to spend time with women, then joining a women’s organisation is a way to do that. And you could reason to yourself that these were adult women who could look after themselves.

But why would any man specifically want to join the guides? If it’s for validation (somewhere you weren’t welcome before might be a temptation) then that’s all about the person and nothing to do with wanting to help girls, which is surely the normal reason for women to volunteer. And the only other reason I can think of is wanting to be close to young girls. Which is something that would be a red flag in any male.

I think those at the top of girlguiding must be so busy being kind and feeling virtuous, that they haven’t thought at all about the other person in the equation and what is motivating them. Because the moment you do that, the pitfalls are so obvious that only an idiot (or worse) would go there.

Exactly. And the people at the top are not in the slightest bit unaware of this. They have been told over and over and over. From women on here. From the girl guide leaders who have been forced out. From every corner of social media.

They have been informed that stonewall include cross dressing, drag, etc, under their trans umbrella and they have been given the statistics for male pattern crime, including for men who identify as women.

It has also been explained to them, in great detail, how promoting gender is detrimental to girls.

And as their contested, challenged and controversial policy comes home to roost, it's my guess that all those who warned them of it will be making those warnings public knowledge.

AuntyFungal · 23/11/2021 09:18

So, did MS-T toil for years at grassroot levels; earning the trust and respect from fellow leaders? Dedicating long hours to sift shit as volunteers do?

Or were they fast tracked to their current DC position?

Just wondering…

FreeBritnee · 23/11/2021 09:23

Wow there’s a lot of holes in this thread!

TedImgoingmad · 23/11/2021 09:32

Censoring of links to an article from an online publication trying to give women a voice because they have been censored all over the media. The founders of Mumsnet must be feeling very proud right now. Do you hold us in that much contempt that you think we can't think for ourselves, apply critical thinking skills to articles, do our own research? Or was it not "kind" enough, not using "kind" enough language? Why is the kindness a one way street on Mumsnet?

HSHorror · 23/11/2021 09:54

Not in relation to transgender but i have observed a few issues with safety when m y kids have been at scouts/rainbows etc
On first meeting dc2 attended when dc2 came out to be collected (due to covid) dc2 went straight across the road to our car. They were a few minutes early out and i was getting out the car. Dc2 was 5y0 and didnt look. The road isnt a main road but does have buses.
Other time on a walk (different group) the lead kids were ahead of the adults by several minutes and while my dc was fine and stayed on the pavement 1 child crossed a very minor road (7yo)

I guess in both these incidences its road safety so partly us parents but also i would have expected say a person at the head of the group probably in both situations and a general stay together.
Incident 1 i didnt say anything as we were at our car and resolved to tell my dc off and make sure i was there early for collection , not across the road where they could see the car.
Incident 2 not my child and maybe they did check before crossing and they are already 7.
In contrast when i went with another group of older kids 7-9yo in a city there were volunteers at front and back and carefully crossing a busy road.

Actually similar to incident 2 happened a few times from school too (covid) where reception release kids but the kid would then go straight over the road into the car park or released and parent not there.
There are likely procedures and risk assessments but its about individual child behaviour.
Re trans we dont have any in my dc brownies or rainbows i guess the kids are young still. But there has been male volunteers.

But i sould only worry about a overnight camp and think birth sex makes most sense. Mainly because over 10yo most parents wouldnt have b/g friends sharing unsupervised.
Actually incident 3 school my dc1 age 7 in an small swimming pool changing cubicle 1-2-1 with her male friend changing for swimming. The other kids were boy girl segregated. I think teachers hadnt noticed but they werent allowed to do that next lesson. The school also have unisex toilets and dc get changed for afterschool sports with the afterschool sports person in there

averylongtimeago · 23/11/2021 10:07

@HSHorror the issue with dc crossing the road to get to parents is a relatively easy thing to solve.
Our local brownies and guides ask that parents come into the hall or queue outside to collect their children, we don't just turn them out of the door to run free.

It doesn't help when parents grumble because they have to get out of their cars and walk into the hall. Or turn up 15 minutes late again and shout from the other side of the main road for us to "send Flossie over". Err, no.

ArabellaScott · 23/11/2021 10:18

A group like GG runs on trust and its reputation. I would expect any org run largely by volunteers like this and well known to be something targeted by predators would have sound and robust safeguarding policies and do sensible checks on social media etc.

People are entrusting their children to this organisation. Is it performing due diligence?

Did it really sack women for whistleblowing? That's a red flag to begin with.

And what happens once the whistleblowers have been purged?

What next?

averylongtimeago · 23/11/2021 10:30

Also HSHorror, it's not that the group (Cubs, scouts, guides whatever) may have a male or female helper. This is obviously allowed in Scouting which is openly mixed sex, and even in Guiding, males can be unit helpers even if not leaders.

Guiding is "for women and girls", they have changed now from single sex, to single gender- so men and boys who identify as women or girls can join and be treated exactly like all the other women and girls.
As a leader I am not allowed to mention to parents that there is a trans woman as a leader or that one of the girls is a trans girl. At an overnight event I cannot treat the trans girl any differently- they would use the same showers and toilets and sleep in the same bedroom or tent with the rest of the group. I am not allowed, even without identifying the trans girl, to inform the parents that a young person with a male body will be sharing with their daughters.

As a leader, I am not allowed to object to sharing a bedroom with a trans woman on a residential and not allowed to tell parents they would be attending. As you can imagine, there is not much space to change in private in a tent or dorm bedroom.

It is worth noting here that Girlguiding properties leaders facilities are not set up for mixed sex groups. Our groups are going away in the Spring term- two different guide owned properties. In each there is one leaders bedroom with multiple beds, which are pretty close to each other and don't allow for much in the way of privacy. There is also just one leaders toilet/shower room- leaders use a separate one to the children.
I am not allowed to voice my concerns about this.

If this leader, who shares totally unacceptable posts on social media, were in my area, I would have to share a bedroom with them without complaint and also not be allowed to mention to parents they were attending.
How can parents give informed consent in these circumstances?
How can parents from religious backgrounds allow their children to take part?

averylongtimeago · 23/11/2021 10:43

Arabellascot yes, whistleblowers absolutely were sacked. Katie and Helen Watts were both kicked out for raising these questions.
We are not allowed to discuss these issues or question policy on any of the many Guiding Facebook groups- a whole group of us were blocked when we did so a couple of years ago. We were told in no uncertain terms that we cannot discuss this issue.
It is very difficult to speak out against all this in Guiding, when you work in education, the civil service or one of the many other areas where to do so means you would loose your job.