Girlguides - is it a lost cause?

[iamruth]

Having pulled both of my daughters out based on their switching of gender/sex and what Myself and my husband believe are strong safeguarding concerns as a result as well as the general erosion of girls’ rights as a result I’m wondering if it’s now a lost cause? Is there any chance at all of them being challenged or is that it now?

Avery - unfortunately covid they had closed the car park and were then discharging kids from the pavement). This year they have now let us into the car park to wait so further from the road so a lot better.
So yes i agree solvable mainly and no parents shouldnt expect the kids to cross the road. I think we were early to get there but hadnt got out the car as the kids hadnt turned up and i assumed the kids would wait the 30s to get out the car and cross the road. Dc was so fast the leaders didnt even notice (and obviously still dont know dc did this).
Dc is quite unusual -fast runner and i expect most kids dont recognise their parents car at 5y. Plus dc.had only been at school maybe 4w.at.that point so possibly wouldnt have done that another time

I have to say averylongtimeago that if I was faced with that choice I would not be available to go. I know that the consequence of that could well be that the camp doesn't go ahead. In some ways though, if you had a genuine concern about the safety and appropriateness of a Leader, it would be better for residential not to happen. The benefits to many is not outweighed by the risk in those circumstances.

Yes i know and agree that is awful! Mainly the sharing tent/other accommodation for adult or child. For adult i would hope the transgender person would be able to/choose to have a roo m to themself.presumably in scouts a transwoman leader would be accommodated with the women even with men's accommodation.
I doubt normal business trips could expect this sort of sharing.
With a dd in scouts - there are 2 other girls but some areas probably dont have enough of a mix to divide easily by sex

@averylongtimeago

Arabellascot yes, whistleblowers absolutely were sacked. Katie and Helen Watts were both kicked out for raising these questions. We are not allowed to discuss these issues or question policy on any of the many Guiding Facebook groups- a whole group of us were blocked when we did so a couple of years ago. We were told in no uncertain terms that we cannot discuss this issue. It is very difficult to speak out against all this in Guiding, when you work in education, the civil service or one of the many other areas where to do so means you would loose your job.

Horrifying. Are there not rules about safeguarding whistleblowers, and for very good reasons?!

From the outside it really looks like there was a purge against anyone who raised any concerns about safeguarding. Which makes all the hairs on my arms stand up.

I mean, no way am I sending my DD to anything organised by this organisation. It wants investigated.

Oh look that thing we were concerned would happen, is happening. Again.

@BettyFilous

Do GG have any vetting procedures for leaders beyond DBS checks? This makes them look like a profoundly amateur organisation, not one I’d be entrusting my children to.

As for the individual concerned? When someone shows who they are….

You think that they do DBS checks?

Here's their vetting policy www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/recruitment-and-vetting-policy/

It's all the responsibility of volunteers to ensure that volunteers have a valid disclosure (DBS or equivalent in each devolved nation). Even this (disclosure check) doesn't always happen, I assume because you're relying on volunteers who may or may not see this as important.

@ArabellaScott I can't seem to quote your post, "Horrifying. Are there not rules about safeguarding whistleblowers, and for very good reasons?!

From the outside it really looks like there was a purge against anyone who raised any concerns about safeguarding. Which makes all the hairs on my arms stand up."

But... PIDA only applies to "workers", not volunteers, and as such, no, volunteer whistleblowers are not protected. Girlguiding point this out on their website.

A DBS really is the absolute minimum for working with children. All it shows is whether one has any convictions.

This is also interesting:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/managing-concerns-about-adult-volunteers-policy/

'As a Girlguiding volunteer you must always:

Be a good role model with behaviour and an attitude that are in line with our values and the Promise.'

'As a Girlguiding volunteer you must not ... do anything which brings, or is likely to bring, Girlguiding into disrepute or have a negative impact on Girlguiding or its reputation.'

If you are a parent of a guide, please write to them and ask them to explain themselves. Emphasise the fact that you are a paying customer of this organisation, that posted a £4m loss a year ago. They think by being "inclusive", they will secure revenue from genderist riddled organisations like BBC Children In Need. But parents with a modicum of good sense will withdraw their children, and their fees. What GGUK will be left with is not really what they want. They want all of us ordinary, run of the mill parents to carry on playing the game and shut up about the nasty stuff. We are the beard. Once we are gone, there will just be a cesspit of dubious individuals and their idiot supporters, and a noble organisation destroyed forever.

charitytimes.com/ct/girlguiding-considering-making-valued-staff-redundant-due-to-Covid-19-income-drop.php

I would actually prefer a straightforward male leader, a tried and tested teacher, say whom everyone in a community knows.

@ArabellaScott

A DBS really is the absolute minimum for working with children. All it shows is whether one has any convictions.

This is also interesting:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/managing-concerns-about-adult-volunteers-policy/

'As a Girlguiding volunteer you must always:

Be a good role model with behaviour and an attitude that are in line with our values and the Promise.'

'As a Girlguiding volunteer you must not ... do anything which brings, or is likely to bring, Girlguiding into disrepute or have a negative impact on Girlguiding or its reputation.'

Quite, but they don't even seem that bothered about that in some cases.

GG for Herts County has recently appointed a transman as LGBTQ+ Inclusion Officer

So TWAW and also TMAW, not men.

@Melroses

GG for Herts County has recently appointed a transman as LGBTQ+ Inclusion Officer

So TWAW and also TMAW, not men.

Bizarre that Girl Guides should need an inclusion officer at all, let alone give the position to a biological female who insists they're really a man. Strange days.

@HermioneWeasley

I can’t believe we can’t say it’s a massive safeguarding red flag that a male wants to be a senior leader in the girl guides. If Monica didn’t identify as a woman, nobody would think this was appropriate.

Monica also posts pictures of Monica in BDSM gear on social media. Not very appropriate.

I can’t state the bleeding obvious as I’ll be deleted, but come on!

More on this

archive.md/Y3obl

Bizarre that Girl Guides should need an inclusion officer at all

a recruitment officer for the gender identity belief system. Their job is to break the link of being female with your physical self and link it to the girl's personality. Introduce the girl guides to flags and colour coded systems with labels, cleverly marketed for children. A side job to this role is ensuring the propaganda is ot questioned by the unenlightened parents and safeguarding experts.

@FindTheTruth

Bizarre that Girl Guides should need an inclusion officer at all

a recruitment officer for the gender identity belief system. Their job is to break the link of being female with your physical self and link it to the girl's personality. Introduce the girl guides to flags and colour coded systems with labels, cleverly marketed for children. A side job to this role is ensuring the propaganda is ot questioned by the unenlightened parents and safeguarding experts.

Reminds me of this post from @LadyBunty last year, re an activity for Guides: "Hello FWR. I am a Guide leader. Under a recently overhauled regime, we are required to follow a programme of prescribed activities that will allow our girls to gain badges.

We were given our latest pack of activities last week, and this includes an activity titled Binary Breakdown partnered by Stonewall . (I will type it all out below for ease of reference). My feeling when reading it is that it is all kinds of wrong, but I have to admit, I am feeling pretty jaded about Stonewall's influence in everything, and GGUK's conduct over the past few years. So perhaps I am being unfair, and I wondered what some of you might think? Parent, non binary, safeguarding etc based opinions all welcome, thank you.

BINARY BREAKDOWN

AIM OF ACTIVITY

What do the colour pink, heavy metal music, baking and engineering have in common? A person who likes them all! Become empowered to challenge anyone who tells you otherwise.

WHAT YOU'LL GET OUT OF IT

Challenge gender stereotypes; reflect on what makes you who you are.

NOTE TO LEADER

This activity involves talking about personal opinions on gender. remind Guides to be respectful of each other and speak up if there's a topic they don't feel comfortable discussing. If your Guides have any questions, you can find lots of information to support them in our Let's Talk resource, or take a look online at our partner on this activity, Stonewall.

BEFORE YOU START

Draw an outline of a person on two large sheets of paper. Label one boy and the other girl.

WHAT TO DO

1. Get into 2 teams and sit on one side of your space. One team will be team boy, the other team girl. Your leader will put down a sheet of paper on the opposite side of the space for each team and give you some sticky notes and pens.

1. When your leader says "Go!", write or draw things that represent that gender on the sticky notes. You could include sports, school subjects, emotions, music, clothes, colours or toys, for example. Once you've written one, move as quickly as you can and stick it on your person. Which person will cover their person first? You've got three minutes!

1. Times's up! Take turns reading your ideas. Assuming someone has certain characteristics just because of their gender is known as gender stereotyping . Can you think of any examples of gender stereotypes?

1. How much of a person gets missed when they're confined to a gender stereotype? In your teams, pick out any of the sticky notes which you personally relate to.

Team girl - are there things about you that these stereotypes don't capture?

Team boy - do you relate to anything that people stereotypically associate with a different gender?

Gender stereotypes are binary: this means they make us think that people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways. But we shouldn't have to! Some people don't identify as either male or female. People who identify as non-binary might feel like they're somewhere in between or they're neither.

In a world structured around binary definitions, what do you think could be difficult for people who identify as non-binary?

1. Now get into smaller groups and look through magazines and catalogues. Are there any non gendered options? Circle them. How do you think someone who identifies as non-binary might feel choosing their clothes, toys or even toothbrushes if most things are gendered?

1. It's time to break the mould! Choose one thing that you all believe shouldn't be gendered and make your voice heard. You could write a letter to the manufacturer, make a blog or start a hashtag campaign to spread your voice far and wide.

OK, so in no particular order, this has made me feel uneasy because:

1. STONEWALL. I feel that they are a political lobbying group with a very strong anti women, anti "cis" (sorry to use that word) agenda. As such, they should not be partnering with GGUK, unless other political groups get their chance as well. (For the record, GGUK does partner with other entities, e.g., Royal Air Force, but in that case, they will focus on something like women in engineering, so politically neutral).

1. CONFLATION OF SEX AND GENDER: talking about gender, but failing to set out the difference between biological sex as a binary, and gender that is a spectrum. You can identify as anything you like, but your biological sex remains the same. I feel like this exercise is taking advantage of the euphemistic/polite use of "gender" - when what you mean is sex - in order to muddy the waters. It also assumes "non-binary" is some sort of official categorisation of human beings, requiring a human rights intervention; rather than an expression of personality and personal interests that liberal, Western society is already happy to embrace. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that, but not being " super feminine" or "super masculine" would seem to apply to the vast majority of humans, surely we are nearly all somewhere in between?)

1. EXPERTISE AND PARENTAL BOUNDARIES: So what happens if the discussion spills into sexual relations and sexuality, periods, child-bearing? I am not trained to give quasi sex ed, nor have my parents given me consent to do so.

1. PLANTING SEEDS OF DOUBT ABOUT WHAT SOCIETY THINKS OF YOU AND VICTIM MENTALITY: I have an ethnically diverse group of Guides who do all sorts of other activities and sports and have varied interests. None has ever expressed any doubt that they can't do anything or are not good at certain subjects because they are girls. I just find the activity backwards and divisive. It doesn't feel empowering, it feels like victimhood. If your gender (which really, is just your personality, surely) says you love dresses and flower arranging, does that make you "wrong" because you are a "stereotype"? Conversely, if you like playing rugby and prefer short hair, why does that make you less of a girl? Does being the former preclude you from taking science subjects, and the latter make you unsuitable for home economics? Isn't this activity planting the seed that you don't belong, you are not one thing or another, and then tries to prove this by trawling through advertising material to prove society is against you? Surely the positive message to the supposedly gender non conforming is that, "lucky you" you are not confined, you can have both the Barbie themed toothbrush and the Saracens face flannel, and feel perfectly happy about having it all. And look, there are a gazillion products and activities that are not confined to "gender stereotypes", so don't feel down! I mean, fgs, it's not that hard to find "neutral" stuff in the Western world, is it?

1. DEPT EDUCATION GUIDANCE: I've only just become aware of this latest development. Surely this activity falls within the category of suggestion that your gender might change depending on your interests? Am I reading too much into this? I don't think the activity really holds together: It starts off with the suggestion that what you like doing is not confined to whether you are male or female; and then goes on to suggest that liking stuff from both sides is how non binary people feel - so surely that's suggesting to Guides that they too might be non-binary?

1. HANDMAIDENING OF GIRLS: To pursue a political agenda spearheaded by Stonewall. This is not about empowering girls, it is about making them responsible for the feelings of people who don't feel like girls.

Sorry for the very long post, and my lack of erudition. Like I said at the beginning, this just does not sit right with me, and I'd really like to know if you think I am overthinking it or being prejudiced because it involves Stonewall?

Thank you for reading!"

Credit: @LadyBunty

@HSHorror

Yes i know and agree that is awful! Mainly the sharing tent/other accommodation for adult or child. For adult i would hope the transgender person would be able to/choose to have a roo m to themself.presumably in scouts a transwoman leader would be accommodated with the women even with men's accommodation. I doubt normal business trips could expect this sort of sharing. With a dd in scouts - there are 2 other girls but some areas probably dont have enough of a mix to divide easily by sex

HSHorror the difference is Girl Guides current residential facilities are only designed for one sex, female as in theory (if no longer in practice) it is a single sex organisation. Scouts residential facilities have been able to accommodate birth male and females due to it being a mixed sex. So the scouts are in a position of being able to provide separate sleeping facilities for females and males more easily.

I’m unsure what scouts would actually do if a transwoman scout leader insisted on sharing accommodation with female leaders.

Girl Guides activity titled Binary Breakdown partnered by Stonewall:

"Gender stereotypes are binary: this means they make us think that people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways. But we shouldn't have to! Some people don't identify as either male or female. People who identify as non-binary might feel like they're somewhere in between or they're neither."

This is Girl Guides Stonewall teaching girls that if they don't like Barbie Dolls they're 'Non Binary' and it's quite clever the way gender ideology recruitment has moved on from 'born in the wrong body' (against DfE guidelines) to 'born in the wrong gender'. What they're teaching here is the opposite of feminism, reality and science. Teach these young girls feminism and that the only thing to identify as is a human being.

thanks @Eggybrains and @LadyBunty for posting this girl guide non-binary activity - makes my blood run cold then boil

It's a very poorly thought out activity. The first part is fine. The second part contradicts the first.
It starts off by saying we don't all fit gender stereotypes. But then introduces the concept of NB as someone who doesn't fit stereotypes either, despite already saying that people don't all fit the stereotype either. So are we all NB?
It's actually quite dangerous to plant that idea in the minds of Guides and coming from people (Leaders) they trust to be honest with them.

@FindTheTruth

Girl Guides activity titled Binary Breakdown partnered by Stonewall:

"Gender stereotypes are binary: this means they make us think that people only identify as male or female, and you have to look, act and dress in certain ways. But we shouldn't have to! Some people don't identify as either male or female. People who identify as non-binary might feel like they're somewhere in between or they're neither."

This is Girl Guides Stonewall teaching girls that if they don't like Barbie Dolls they're 'Non Binary' and it's quite clever the way gender ideology recruitment has moved on from 'born in the wrong body' (against DfE guidelines) to 'born in the wrong gender'. What they're teaching here is the opposite of feminism, reality and science. Teach these young girls feminism and that the only thing to identify as is a human being.

Exactly. It's bonkers. Are any of us binary on this basis?

I feel pretty cis-woman (is that the right term?) but I like blue and maths. Does Girlguiding say I'm wrong about thinking I'm a woman?

Don't we want our girls attending this organisation to believe they can be what they want to be, even if that's a male role like an engineer, pilot, film producer, firefighter, builder or architect?

Our guides well us leaders have quietly "lost" that activity card.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/942454/Working_together_to_safeguard_children_inter_agency_guidance.pdf

If complaining about any gg volunteers/staff it might be worth looking at the section of the above that refers to charities/other organisations (can’t remember the exact wording). Not sure exactly who safeguarding complaints a about a charity need directed to, maybe someone else will know better than me. But if the charity ignores safeguarding complaints then there will be another agency to escalate it to.

And perhaps if they don’t listen to complaints then complain to the charity commission? Their complaints procedure expects people to complain to the charities direct first before complaining to charity commission. But if it’s ignored then you can complain to them if the charity are ignoring their charitable aims, and ignoring safeguarding in a girls charity must involve ignoring their charitable aims also.

Some of the information on their website is a bit out of date. I came across this with respect to the GRA:
This law was progressive when it was brought in but is now regarded as dated. Other countries enable self-declaration of gender in similar ways to self-declaring a change of name, like Ireland, Argentina, Denmark, Malta. The UK is currently reviewing this law with a view to updating it.
The last sentence is now incorrect. The Govt has concluded their update and self ID is not being legislated for.