Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguides - is it a lost cause?

278 replies

iamruth · 15/06/2021 21:55

Having pulled both of my daughters out based on their switching of gender/sex and what Myself and my husband believe are strong safeguarding concerns as a result as well as the general erosion of girls’ rights as a result I’m wondering if it’s now a lost cause? Is there any chance at all of them being challenged or is that it now?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
iamruth · 15/06/2021 22:15

Actually, ignore me, I’ve engaged my brain, found and pledged to the cause.

OP posts:
StillWeRise · 15/06/2021 22:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

iamruth · 15/06/2021 23:13

No need to hide it, genuinely. Please feel free to remove it if necessary. I just felt I’d answered my own question.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 16/06/2021 02:40

The women on the ground IME are no shrinking violets and have a passion for giving space to girls.

I'm not sure if they all really know about the changes.

GiantToadstool · 16/06/2021 02:43

Im not convinced it will ever return as its a top down problem/now built into their ethos.

aweegc · 16/06/2021 02:52

With self-ID actually shelved though, doesn't that somehow impact their ability to allow entry to biological boys, at least without informing parents? I would have thought that Maya's case would also influence this somehow, along with organisations withdrawing from Stonewall. If not, certainly paved the way for a very public challenge.

I'm surprised the DM and The Times haven't been on the case actually. The DM especially, in fact, as I'm sure it could go to town on the headlines!

IvyTwines2 · 16/06/2021 09:23

Interestingly, last night the Duke of Edinburgh Award's account tweeted, recommending young people seek advice from Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence and the Pride Trust. There were a lot of critical comments about safeguarding in response, and they've now deleted the original tweet.

teawamutu · 16/06/2021 10:14

@IvyTwines2

Interestingly, last night the Duke of Edinburgh Award's account tweeted, recommending young people seek advice from Stonewall, Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence and the Pride Trust. There were a lot of critical comments about safeguarding in response, and they've now deleted the original tweet.
They have? Excellent. Maybe they'll actually engage their brains rather than reflex virtue-signalling and try again, with decent advice sources.
iamruth · 16/06/2021 10:26

Interesting., maybe, just maybe the tide is truely turning.

OP posts:
TedImgoingmad · 16/06/2021 10:27

Is it a lost cause? GGUK have recently doubled down on their inclusion policy. Lots of us on the ground are GC, and I will not agree to having a boy in my unit. I'll resign if I am ever compelled to. I'm a volunteer, I don't need to do this, and I don't owe GGUK anything. The unit will fold, because everyone wants a place for their girl, but nobody is willing to volunteer as a unit helper or leader. That will be GGUK's loss, not mine. I'll take my considerable skills and volunteer elsewhere, or use the hours and hours I put in every week to do something for myself for a change.

iamruth · 16/06/2021 10:31

@TedImgoingmad

Is it a lost cause? GGUK have recently doubled down on their inclusion policy. Lots of us on the ground are GC, and I will not agree to having a boy in my unit. I'll resign if I am ever compelled to. I'm a volunteer, I don't need to do this, and I don't owe GGUK anything. The unit will fold, because everyone wants a place for their girl, but nobody is willing to volunteer as a unit helper or leader. That will be GGUK's loss, not mine. I'll take my considerable skills and volunteer elsewhere, or use the hours and hours I put in every week to do something for myself for a change.
Thank you for all of the time and dedication you have no doubt shown. You are absolutely correct that you owe them nothing and that they and the families owe you lots in terms of gratitude. It will absolutely be GGUKs loss, but sadly a loss for girls too.
OP posts:
KleineDracheKokosnuss · 16/06/2021 10:34

I’ve already resigned as leader following the doubling down. The problem is top down and fully embedded. They didn’t even attempt to engage and develop a balanced position.

While many leaders are GC, I can’t guarantee I’ll know if a boy turns up - and they certainly aren’t allowed to tell me.

I’m pulling DD1 from Brownies. I will allow DD2 to be a Rainbow, but she won’t progress through.

iamruth · 16/06/2021 10:57

@KleineDracheKokosnuss

Thank you for all of the time that you gave and I absolutely respect your decision too. I’m so sad for what I think Girls have lost as a result of this.

OP posts:
SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 16/06/2021 11:04

Does the judgement in Maya’s case help at all, in terms of making it easier to successfully challenge GG’s policy?

BlackeyedSusan · 16/06/2021 11:06

dd didn't go to guides because of this.

TedImgoingmad · 16/06/2021 12:41

@SimonedeBeauvoirscat

Does the judgement in Maya’s case help at all, in terms of making it easier to successfully challenge GG’s policy?
The Essex Uni/Stonewall exposure is more helpful.

Maya's case helps Katie and Helen who were expelled from GGUK, as they can claim that they expressed their beliefs, as enshrined under the EQA, and were thrown out for doing so.

My beef is with safeguarding. The inclusion policy is the antithesis of safeguarding, putting data protection (the right to the trans person's privacy) in front of informed consent (the rights of girls and their parents to know whether there will be a natal boy sharing tents/intimate spaces with natal girls). It is based on "Stonewall Law", i.e., that self ID is enshrined in the EQA (it is not) and that "trans girls" are a protected group (they are not, nobody can hold a GRC under the age of 18). Stonewall's influence in GGUK inclusion policy may have been via Aimee Challenor, somebody who is married to a self confessed "minor attracted person".

The policy is also is discriminatory precisely because a boy cannot hold a GRC. Therefore, it excludes one category of boy - boys that don't believe themselves to be girls, but allows other boys in - those that do think of themselves as girls. For the purposes of the law, both categories are legally boys, and therefore, the policy discriminates against some boys.

The policy indirectly discriminates against girls for whom a single sex organisation is necessary for religious purposes.

Finally, as the policy breaks the law, I don't see why I should be forced to break the law on behalf of GGUK, or put a girl at risk because they have been given unsound advice and will not listen.

TedImgoingmad · 16/06/2021 12:45

Thank you for your thank you iamruth . I am currently carrying on out of obligation to my current group of guides, but I feel totally jaded by the whole experience and what is going on in wider society. I feel like a handmaiden to GGUK rather than a valued partner.

SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 16/06/2021 12:47

Thank you @TedImgoingmad that’s very clear. Hopefully these developments will cause GG leadership to pause for thought.

KleineDracheKokosnuss · 16/06/2021 13:20

Tedimgoingmad has explained it beautifully. My biggest issue is the safeguarding. It’s being totally ignored.

I also object to the Intro of official activities (UMAs, needed to get badges) which entrench regressive gender stereotypes.

Beamur · 16/06/2021 14:23

I don't think it's a lost cause, but I do think they have been very badly advised and still haven't taken the blinkers off.
If/when that happens we'll see a change.

StillWeRise · 16/06/2021 18:04

The policy indirectly discriminates against girls for whom a single sex organisation is necessary for religious purposes.

I think this is direct discrimination actually.
I have supported 2 families to access Guides for their daughters
One was a very religious family who would not have allowed her to attend a mixed group (and there were in any case no suitable mixed groups)
The other were escaping some extreme domestic abuse and the girl would never have been comfortable with a male leader (and 'trans girls' would have been very confusing for her)- so she wouldn't have attended either.

TedImgoingmad · 16/06/2021 18:14

@Beamur

I don't think it's a lost cause, but I do think they have been very badly advised and still haven't taken the blinkers off. If/when that happens we'll see a change.
The problem is that, the minute they do recant, they are stuck having to deal with the "transgirls" and trans women they have allowed to get involved. The fallout will be horrendous, the TRAs will slaughter them.
Beamur · 16/06/2021 18:46

I'm not betting on any outcomes here. But given the posting above and the very clear ways that GG are operating outside of the law I think it is a matter of time before they have to address this.
Yes, it's going to be very messy.

NiceGerbil · 16/06/2021 20:10

The GG thing is so weird.

They have an exemption to allow them to be single sex because of focus on girls who have certain challenges in life specific to them.

Changing it to gender breaks their charter surely.

Letting in some male children but not others and excluding some female ones is surely discrimination.

The impact on girls with certain religious backgrounds or parents who just have certain ideas is important.

Their statement that they were NEVER a single sex org was such a ridiculous lie I couldn't believe it. So blatant! And so disrespectful of their history.

Yeah it's just fucking weird.

Eggybrains · 19/11/2021 18:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.