Girlguides - is it a lost cause?

[iamruth]

Having pulled both of my daughters out based on their switching of gender/sex and what Myself and my husband believe are strong safeguarding concerns as a result as well as the general erosion of girls’ rights as a result I’m wondering if it’s now a lost cause? Is there any chance at all of them being challenged or is that it now?

In all seriousness, didn't people on here experience anything like school field trips, ski trips etc? If you put a bunch of teenagers in close proximity, I would say that the chances of a teen 'romance' of some kind is pretty high! So, what would you, if you are a parent, prefer teachers and guide/scout leaders to do? These kind of trips foster and encourage independence, so it's unlikely that the kids will be micro managed to the nth degree and if they are determined, will find a way to meet other teens.
DD's Leaders make their expectations clear - they're not allowed to go onto the camping areas of other groups and are not allowed to have people in their tents. They also keep them insanely busy all day! Opportunity to meet boys/girls is very low. But not 100%

@Artichokeleaves

Does this link back to Stephen Whittle explaining on MN that there were no problems with transgirls going on residentials and sleeping alongside girls so long as the leaders had condoms?

that made it into policy?

Stephen Whittle, who confessed to having sex with a scout during a mixed camp as a teenaged Girl Guide?

@Beamur I’d expect the children to be supervised to the level that ensures they aren’t having sex as they are at home.

Filia's tweet is spot on:

@FiLiA_charity

Watching @Girlguiding unravel over their lack of sufficient #safeguarding procedures is like so much in life ...

Feminists frantically wave red flags 🚩

They are ignored

Feminists predictions come true

They are vilified

Tipping point

'But we didnt know'

Feminists: sigh

twitter.com/FiLiA_charity/status/1463262240489021449

I honestly thought that girl guide trips (prior to all this trans stuff) were female only, not just because of safeguarding but also to provide a space where girls could flourish, as in single-sex girls' schools.

I do know women who had sex on school trips as teenagers. The males they had sex with were the adult men who were meant to be in loco parentis. I reckon it's pretty common.

I do know women who had sex on school trips as teenagers. The males they had sex with were the adult men who were meant to be in loco parentis. I reckon it's pretty common.

At 13 or 14?

[quote 5zeds]@Beamur I’d expect the children to be supervised to the level that ensures they aren’t having sex as they are at home.[/quote]
With older teenagers, as I've tweeted, if you'd let them be alone in your house or someone else's house, you cannot totally prevent them from being alone with the opposite sex.
Mixed camps are not new (and this policy, however bananas, has been in place for some time, as have joint camps with Scouts)

Did the teachers give them condoms?

There were rumours at my school too, though not about 13 and 14 year olds.

Male Scout Leader to Guide Leader:
"Hey Brown Owl, I fancy some sexy time with one of your patrol leaders tonight. Got any johnnies I could borrow?"
Guide Leader: "Sure. Here you go Akela. Take a couple".

I would somehow have thought of a girl guides’ trip being different from a school trip with a mixed sex school.

It seems tacit expectations are that there will be sex on mixed trips.

I don't mean male teachers, ski instructors and outward bound guides flattering teenage girls into sex on school trips is pretty common and therefore ok. I mean we know men already take advantage of these situations and that's why they should never be allowed in the girl guides. The women I know who had sex with the men who were supposed to be looking after them were between the ages of 14 and 18. Being away from their parents made them vulnerable to predators, they were flattered by the attention from an adult, and the 'holiday' atmosphere made everything seem more romantic than it really was. Men will absolutely abuse these situations.

Another thing I'm questioning is if a teenage girl asks a male supervisor for condoms, does that not potentially put her in a vulnerable position in relationship to that man, i.e. if he is an abuser, he may see her as easier to exploit.

[quote 5zeds]@Beamur I’d expect the children to be supervised to the level that ensures they aren’t having sex as they are at home.[/quote]
absolutely. I was a teacher, I took kids on residentials, I did my stint of sitting on the stairs outside the door to the girl's block making sure they all stayed where they were supposed to, especially the first night when they were all hyper, it got easier as we wore them out with activities during the week. We had a rota. Bloody exhausting but we did it.

The thing that seems to be the norm especially with this topic.

Is when something is seen that is concerning etc.

Rather than front up to it, behave in an open and transparent way.

Orgs and individuals think oh shit. And immediately act to get anything to do with it deleted or hidden from the public.

For individuals it's one thing but imo inappropriate and pathetic esp in public eye/ lots of followers/ posting things about current affairs, politics etc.

For orgs? Esp charities. It's a massive red flag in itself.

Proritising the modern equivalent of shedding the docs is just really dodgy anyway but this being the/ a top priority? What about the issue FFS? A charity esp a children's one should NEVER be hiding things pointing to safeguarding issues.

It's pointless. Screen shots. Archives. People also have memories. So it makes them seem even worse. As so many people know about, saw the things they deleted. And they still exist. What do they expect anyone to make of that?

I see deletions on this thread as well. So someone has been onto MN.

I imagine they would say it's because it's about an individual and their name and pics are being seen widely. And their personal pics being circulated is distressing for them. And I am sure it is esp in the context that's happening. And the comments are numerous and on twitter anyway some very personal.

However. Girl guides notts have removed the whole meet the team page. And while people don't expect to have their SM pics seen widely and having them seen widely because of safeguarding working with children is clearly going to be extremely unexpected and unpleasant.

The fact is that anyone involved in an org like GG should NEVER be sharing things like that publically. And due to privacy settings not being watertight/ can be changed accidentally etc best is not to share on SM full stop.

Thing is without seeing for yourself why this has come up for GG. it is much easier to say. It's transphobes trawling the social media of trans people. Looking to cause trouble for them. None of the things found are illegal in any way. (Although still want to know what type that massive gun is). It's a smear campaign by bigots. And without actually seeing the quotes and pics. They hope that will make most think oh. It's that 'feminist v tra' stuff. Niche. Doubt anything to it as GG are a vv respected org.

This behaviour is in itself a FUCKING MASSIVE RED FLAG.

Was I naive to think that-

School trips / guide camps etc.. Would have risk assessment and putting things in place to minimise opportunities for shagging as much as poss (teenagers can be determined and sneaky) would be a given!

That this was to do with camps where scouts were there as well. They are very very unlikely to know each other before surely. How long are these camps? Few days to a week?

So GG advice is based on meeting, somehow finding enough time to get to know each other a bit, and having PIV sex within that timeframe?

I mean. There essentially basing it on these children meeting fancying and not just snogging etc but having PIV sex in 3-7 days? When most of the time they won't be together presumably. 13-15 yo?

So essentially. See, don't get to know much at all, arrange to evade watchful eyes, and fuck.

When you think about real life that's a really worrying view of the children in their care.

Katie Alcock exactly. I daresay it's uncommon for sex to occur on camps, as the Guides/Rangers are mostly too young and opportunities to get to know boys in different scout units well enough are short in a few days. But some girls will nonetheless be sexually active at maybe 14/15 to some degree and it would equally be irresponsible to pretend it never happens. Ratios are something like 1:12 so you simply cannot keep tabs on everyone. Plus assuming stuff only happens at night time so guarding the dorms will sort that out is somewhat unrealistic too..

I was a guide from 10 to 17..Ive been watching this saga unfold for the last 4 years and am equally horrified, saddened and grateful that I've not got daughters.
Allowing males into a single sex org was always going to end in tears and the underhand way theyve gone about it, circumventing the most basic safeguarding and vilifying whistleblowers is just shocking, they have thrown the girls they were there to provide an invaluable service for right under the bus.
To.address some of the more recent comments, guide camps are on sites that might be hosting scouts at the same time, there was definitely some flirting and girls sneaking off after morning wash up to find boys, but we were never allowed onto their camp area and our leaders were hot on our tails to bring us back with a talking to about team work and setting a good example to the younger girls, our little excursion was not factored into the very full on, busy timetable and it was noticed and stamped on very quickly.
The scouts were mainly a feature in our campfire skits and songs more than they were a real life interaction.
Family camps were more relaxed but all minors were the responsibility of their own family or friends family they were camping with, there was more free time but also much higher adult to child ratio and also still a very high expectation of the older kids to set a good example of the values of the organisation.
Kids would be in tents together playing silly games, kiss truth, dare, mostly innocent stupid stuff with boys we had known our whole lives, mostly all from scouting/guiding families.
All of the family camps I went to had an on-site church service with flag raising on the Sunday morning.
I did go to a camp for older guides and scouts when I was about 15, it was mixed sex and not many leaders possibly younger leaders, we drank alco pops and there was definitely some kissing/fumbling and possibly the chance for sex if any 2 people were determined as it wasn't very well supervised at all, the difference with that one is our parents knew it was mixed sex and what the set up was.
Not so for any mother sending her 10yo daughter on a guide camp now.
The mixed sex camp I went to was either 98 or 99 for reference.

I also went on a residential trip to spain in sixth form and we had full access to the bar and each others rooms, there was definitely sex on that trip but it was mixed sex and we were 17/18.

@ChristinaXYZ

I've also just seen this where they appear to be lowering the age of consent to 13

"Providing contraception
It is the policy of Girlguiding to make every effort to safeguard its members from physical, sexual and emotional
harm while participating in guiding activities. We recognise that leaders have good knowledge of the girls in their
units and are in the best position to judge whether or not it is appropriate to carry barrier contraception
(for example condoms, female condoms) with them on residential events or keep them at the meeting place.
For girls aged 13 and over
If a unit leadership team decides that it is appropriate to carry barrier contraception with them on residentials,
or to keep them in the meeting place, this is their decision and Girlguiding supports this. Equally, if it is decided
that it is not necessary or required, Girlguiding supports the decision not to store barrier contraception.
It is important for any unit, however, if they decide to store barrier contraception, to make this known to
parents and carers and girls before the event. Before barrier contraception is given to a young member,
Girlguiding requires that a leader should consider the Fraser Guidelines (see page 8).
Regularly check that stored barrier contraception are in date.
For girls aged under 13
Girls aged under 13 should not be given contraception as they are not legally deemed to be capable of consenting
to sexual activity, and in the whole of the UK (except in Jersey), it is an absolute offence to have sex with a girl
under 13 (see ‘The law related to sex and young people’, page 3). In this case, you cannot promise
confidentiality, and you must pass on information if you have reason to believe a girl is having, or is being
pressured to have sex."

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/lets-talk-about-sex-and-relationships-advice-for-leaders.pdf

via

this interesting thread

twitter.com/scotlass42/status/1463133285874384900

It may well be appropriate for a doctor who judges a 13-15 year old Gillick competent to give a child contraception I cannot believe it is right for a guide leader to do so. Surely a child who is at risk from sexual coercion/rape (for that's what it is) needs other kinds of support from her parents or social services or the police of all three.

@MrsFionaCharming

As you said you are a GG leader have you seen the above policy posted by @ChristinaXYZ?

It contradicts the below guidance. 57-62.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/942454/Working_together_to_safeguard_children_inter_agency_guidance.pdf

As a GG can you challenge the GG policy with this?

Official Girl Guides guidance for leaders suggests they may wish to bring condoms with them on residential trips and distribute them to the girls. But only if they’re over 13 of course!

That’s bound to make the news. This is so awful on so many levels. GG won’t survive will they?

@MrsFin

A teacher would be sacked (at least) if he or she facilitated underage sex between pupils, nevermind between a pupil and an adult.

That's a very good point. What would a teacher do if a child asked them if they had any contraception?
Any teachers here?

If I discovered, or an under age pupil disclosed, that she was involved or planning to become involved in sexual activity, I am legally obliged to report it to the child protection team. No exceptions.

Do the scouts etc dish out condoms to boys 13 and up on residents I wonder?

Their sex illegal under 13 give condoms if asked from 13.

If a 13 yo girl asks for a condom on a GG residential to have penetrative sex with a boy she is vv unlikely to have known for more than 1 day- 1 week.

They hand some over.

Rather than be concerned in any way.

I see.

Also stemming from this-

Tbh I can't imagine that would be asked of a grown up in that situation tbh of all adult leader. I mean. In real life.

Child presumably won't know they dish them out on demand 13 up no questions asked so why would they even think to ask? Surely wouldnt cross their mind it was totally standard no questions asked?

Unless they are informing girls from 13 that this will be provided no problem on request?!

And surely knowing a girl 13 -15 was going to have penetrative sex on a residential should in itself be an automatic safeguarding issue. Esp at 13!

How many leaders on the ground would be ok with this policy of them handing over no question from THIRTEEN with no worries concerns.

And aren't they in loco parentis or whatever it's called. But rather than showing the concern that any standard adult would have about a 13yo having sex with a boy they likely hardly know. They are required by protocol to ignore the normal reaction of concern. And send them on their way to whoever the boy is no worry about his age or even if it's not an adult.

I mean this is just worse the more you think about it in practical, RL.

One thing after another isn't it with GG.

I hadn’t seen that policy before. I only look in the manual when I have specific questions, and they tend to be more around ‘do I need a walking permit to take girls onto this part of Dartmoor’ than ‘how can I best facilitate a child having sex’.

I think it shows again the massive divide between HQ and what actual leaders are doing. I can’t for a minute imagine a leader taking a group of guides away and telling them where the emergency condoms are.

If you go to the main GG Facebook group, and search ‘condoms’ it’s mostly funny stories involving vending machines in toilets with a few posts about making emergency kit gifts for young leaders going to uni (not so much a safeguarding issue as just cringe!).

Versus searching on the main Scout group and there are endless “I’m sure parents would rather we had condoms than their 14 year old came home pregnant”.

It's always funny to see people try to confuse issues and ratchet up ages whenever it comes to sex.
Always make people think of the upper ages when the lower ages are the ones to protect.

I think suggesting your daughter goes to Scouts instead to reduce the likelihood of sexual activity is an interesting take.
In reality, I imagine that the policy is there because there have been issues regarding contraception and a policy written to frame the law and good practice. It's not advocating for sex on camps and neither would any responsible Leader simply dish them out on request. Not all girls going to Guides/Rangers are sweet innocent things, they're normal teenagers!
A friend of mine is a Scout Leader (female) and they frequently have to manage blossoming teen relationships in their units. It's not all woggles and whittling there either!