GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

And I’d be straight in the loos if i saw a man walking in shortly after my daughter How would you know if the person was a man or a tw? What's the visible difference?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Oh cross post

But you haven’t answered my question so I’ll ask again

Why do you think some women would prefer to use single sex toilets OP?

I answered this, there is no such thing in the UK by gender critical definitions. Right? So how can any women know what it is like to use a space they've never used? They all want to use the current "mixed sex" spaces, that are single gender. Why do you think they want to use these single gendered spaces?

No answer again

- I thought the defn of "gender critical" should frankly be that you don't have any respect for so-called societal norms?

You don't seem to have much of an understanding of gender critical, woman's experiences, trans people's experiences, or societal norms, but that doesn't seem to stop you having an opinion on it all does it.

Oh dear, I don’t think you understand the question OP

Can you think of some reasons why a woman might prefer single sex toilets?

Maybe going to a northern Uni I met different women to you?

Plenty of northerners here love.

Bless. Behind all this men's rights stuff, Op cares about things not being fair for women.

But when women say they don't want men in any guise in their vulnerable spaces for reasons of safety, dignity and privacy, no mention of it being not fair to ignore that and men aggressively pushing through without women's consent.

Hmm. I don't think it is a good idea to normalise the exposure of penises to girls; it is not in their interest. Lowering of boundaries and ability to recognise and therefore communicate grooming. Whosever interest it is in, it is not the girls. I don't think I'd think too much of any father who didn't prioritise his daughter's interest.

Also as above, the toilets in my work are single sex

@lonel

And I’d be straight in the loos if i saw a man walking in shortly after my daughter How would you know if the person was a man or a tw? What's the visible difference?

They might be a cisgender woman I've mistaken for a man, there is no visible difference between a cisgender woman I've mistaken for a man and a man. Other than they probably look completely different to most every other human being and I've made a category error.

How would I find that out? Either by asking, or through a very embarrassing exchange where it's obvious I've misgendered them and I apologise once they assert their identity.

@lonel

And I’d be straight in the loos if i saw a man walking in shortly after my daughter How would you know if the person was a man or a tw? What's the visible difference?

In my case it would be an obvious difference like clothing

But I appreciate it would be a blunt tool, luckily its never happened!

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Also as above, the toilets in my work are single sex

No they're not, according to the ECHR they're open to trans people. You'll be pleased to learn that after the £100K ruling. Workplaces have no more right to blanket ban trans people than any other space.

They all want to use the current "mixed sex" spaces, that are single gender. Why do you think they want to use these single gendered spaces? I have no idea what you are on about but I think there is a good chance that you don't know what GC means. Or how women's loos work. Or what is actually at stake. In fact, I'm not sure you know who you are trying to be an ally to.

Apparently no women and men in the UK have had the experience of using a "single sex" loo.

I have plenty experience of using single sex toilets. You don't get to tell women what we have and haven't experienced.

They might be a cisgender woman I've mistaken for a man

Possible but rare. Unless your eyes are painted on.

Haha! I think the OP considers himself enlightened working class hero or something.

you may be right there.

@Erikrie

They might be a cisgender woman I've mistaken for a man

Possible but rare. Unless your eyes are painted on.

😂😂

No they're not, according to the ECHR they're open to trans people. You'll be pleased to learn that after the £100K ruling. Workplaces have no more right to blanket ban trans people than any other space.

Nothing has actually changed here. Trans people can be excluded as per the law.

But that doesn't explain why you were hanging around in women's toilets. The law doesn't protect you now does it. As a male cischet.

In case people have only recently joined this thread, I'll repeat my post earlier that the OP has posted here to use this thread as material to push their position on twitter:

www.twitter.com/oolon/status/1390625065834778626

according to the ECHR they're open to trans people

Oh dear, your comprehension is poor isn’t it?

A man at work did attempt to use the ladies loos. He didn’t have a GRC and was asked to stop

Even the guidance you set so much store by allows people with a GRC to be excluded on a case by case basis from services set aside for the opposite sex where it achieves a legitimate aim

I do not think the recent ruling means what you think it means

Any way, back to my question

Why might some women prefer single sex toilets?

Either by asking, or through a very embarrassing exchange where it's obvious I've misgendered them and I apologise once they assert their identity.
Trying to imagine this. So you see a tall, bearded man follow your daughter into the loos and you're fine with it as long as he tells you actually he's a woman?

You absolutely have the right to assert your own boundaries, but if those boundaries involve telling marginalised groups of people they can't use public spaces they've always used then that's going to be a problem

Sorry, I know this is going back a bit but women are marginalised people and just because something has always happened does not make it OK. If we followed that argument, raping or beating a woman would be OK as it's always happened. So you're saying that one group of marginalised people should not be able to stop another group of marginalised people using spaces which are supposed to be there to protect the dignity, privacy and safety of a group of people who, because they are so often the victims of male violence can feel uncomfortable around a man even though they know that many men will not assualt them just because others have in the past. A female only space is not a female only space if there are males in it. We need to be clear that this ideology is obliterating a protection women feel is important.