GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

[quote ool0n]@Procrastinator85 given the text that seems to have riled you up is in quotes and appears to be something you wrote, maybe you'd be better off not inventing things that make you angry?

If you want to restrict access to spaces then the GRA is irrelevant, right? That's the point of the post, hth.[/quote]
The point is, not letting men into women’s spaces isn’t restricting access. It’s maintaining access to people for whom the spaces were intended. I can’t access lots of places because I am a female of a certain age. So I couldn’t access a primary school class to learn to read because I’m too old. I couldn’t play tennis for the under 21s Spanish national team because I’m over 21 and not Spanish. Even if i identified as such, I still wouldn’t be let in!

No male can enter a female space however they identify - all they can do is change a female space into a mixed sex space and destroy the female space.

Spooner

A woman isn’t an adult human who hasn’t gone through male puberty. Women are female in biology down to every minute cell of DNA.

I - and the rest of womankind- am not the same as an adult male who has for some reason - not experienced puberty. That changes your adulthood, not your sex.

Why do you think men might not be chased out of women’s spaces? Is it because women view them as women or because women actually view them as men and therefore are fearful to object because women know the damage that can happen if they do?

Hint - it ain’t the former.

@Soontobe60
"Why are you so invested in wanting people of the male sex to be able to freely come and go into female single sex places? Because that’s what self ID does. Personally, I can’t fathom why someone who looks like a man, sounds like a man, but most importantly has the genetic make up of a man should be welcome into single sex female spaces."

We've had what you call "Self ID" legally for decades now, in reality for ever. Trans people have always self identified as trans and accessed the correct spaces for their acquired gender. They always will as can be seen like pioneers such as Lynn Conway who after being fired for being trans by IBM lived stealth for decades.

Most importantly GRA reform has no effect on this status quo. So far no one has answered my query as to if they accept that fact now.

Unless you're saying that trans women are men (which is laughable given that many of us transitioned so young we never even got to experience adult life as a man - yeah, we've been amongst you for decades) then this isn't true, is it?

1. What is a transwoman?

2.How do I know if the person in my space is a transwoman or a man that I am allowed to "chase away" and "beat up"?

Some hints and tips would be most welcome.

Sorry, but as the High Court has asserted - you are the one demanding special privileges.

So women stating they should have sports and facilities where they are vulnerable like changing rooms, hospital wards and prisons with no males present is a 'special privilege'.

Wow. Just wow. The absolute contempt you have for vulnerable women. Wow.

accessed the correct spaces for their acquired gender

There are no gender specific spaces

@Tibtom

There is no "English Government"

Sorry the England and Wales GRA reform consultation, and the Scottish GRA reform consultation. In both cases the government assessment was zero impact to spaces due to GRA reform. Which gender critical people, in my experience, never accepted.... Until now, hopefully!

@spoonrider

"Women, you need to rid yourselves of this ridiculous notion that you are entitled to spaces free from men."

Unless you're saying that trans women are men (which is laughable given that many of us transitioned so young we never even got to experience adult life as a man - yeah, we've been amongst you for decades) then this isn't true, is it? No man just walks into women's spaces and isn't chased out or has security called.

Can you name me a trans woman who has fully experienced life as a female? I would never be able to experience life as a male because I am female. I could possibly imagine what its like, I could dress, walk and talk as a male, but actually wouldn’t I just be experiencing life as a female who identified as a male?

In both cases the government assessment was zero impact to spaces due to GRA reform. Which gender critical people, in my experience, never accepted.... Until now, hopefully

Tell that to the females in single sex spaces who have been assaulted by people of the opposite sex who identify as female.

The Scottish Government consultation has not been published.

@sanluca

Sorry, but as the High Court has asserted - you are the one demanding special privileges.

So women stating they should have sports and facilities where they are vulnerable like changing rooms, hospital wards and prisons with no males present is a 'special privilege'.

Wow. Just wow. The absolute contempt you have for vulnerable women. Wow.

Nope, the law's view of women includes trans women, as the High Court asserted yesterday. The gender critical view is that the spaces need to be segregated by whatever biological sex characteristics GC ideology says are most important at the moment. I believe these days it is "gametes"?

So only women in those spaces, and painting trans women as a nebulous "danger" might play well here but it was dismissed as without substance by the High Court.

@spoonrider

For two reasons really.

1. Sex is immutable.
2. We have single sex spaces for good reasons. This doesn't mean that I don't think Trans people shouldn't have access to safe spaces, but that spaces that are specifically for women are not appropriate for anyone but women. If Transwomen do not feel safe being in single sex men's spaces, then they need to fight to get spaces appropriate for their needs. The GRA allowing people to change sex makes it women's problem, instead of fixing Trans problems in a way that doesn't inadvertently disadvantage others.

I'm sorry I am nowhere near as eloquent at explaining my feelings, as many of the other wonderful feminists on here.

@Tibtom

The Scottish Government consultation has not been published.

www.gov.scot/publications/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-consultation-scottish-government/pages/7/

The courts are still deciding on the impact on women prisoners of locking them up with male sex offenders who identify as women. But we already know there have been women subject to rape and sexual assault because of it.

Copied from another thread from the judgement:

The code does not, as C suggests, make any suggestion go "automatic" entitlement to access on the basis of acquired gender. Exclusion is permissible when a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, eg. of privacy & decency.

This means that there is no issue with service providers providing single sex spaces and exclude any and all transwomen and men, as there is NO automatic inclusion.

So women, write, email and talk to all and every service provider to keep single sex single sex. As they can. As transwomen do NOT have the right to automatic inclusion.

*The man will be dressed like a man. He'll look like a man. He'll be acting like a man.

The trans woman will be (because if you've clocked her she's likely an older transitioner) dressed overly feminine. She'll be doing her utmost to not draw attention. She'll not be making trouble.

It's really quite simple.*

I see. So if the male person in a women only space that is not dressed "overly feminine" then I am allowed to object to their presence as they are not a transwoman?

Can you also help me with what "acting like a man" is?

“ The trans woman will be (because if you've clocked her she's likely an older transitioner) dressed overly feminine.”

Really? I don’t think that applies to Danielle Muscato, with her lovely beard.

There is no longer any pressure to “pass.” In fact as I understood it suggesting people have to look a certain way in order to be accepted as trans is now thought of as transphobic? Difficult to keep up, really.

Telling isn't it that the Keira Bell judgment demonstrating the unethical use of experimental medicine on children too young to consent hasn't stopped trans activists continuing with their campaigns demanding that they must be used on young children despite the emerging evidence of harm . Yet one legal setback for women and it's already being demanded that women publicly recant.

The hypocrisy is off the scale.

by whatever biological sex characteristics GC ideology says are most important at the moment. I believe these days it is "gametes"

It must be so strange going through life unable to recognise the difference between a man and a woman.

The GRA will be revoked at some point, legal fictions that cause this much damage are just not worth the bother. Men can dress how they like but sex change is not possible....some transexual people will still use opposite sex spaces and some will respect womens right to female only spaces. We will get men out of women’s prisons and refuges, trans rights activists have done more harm to trans people than any women have.