GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

Crikey. Until tonight I thought the ladies’ toilets I use were meant to be for females only. I wish they were.

Why might that be, do you think, oolon?

@AssassinatedBeauty

As an aside, the toilets and showers in the post natal ward I was on after giving birth were most certainly single sex. For the use of the women who had given birth only. Men, partners and visitors were to use the ones outside the ward. If any man had used them the midwives would have had them removed.

As for this thing about male cleaners being in the toilets.... places that use male cleaners put up clear signage to that effect. Why do they do that, I wonder?

The loos in my school were definitely single sex. The loos and showers in the ward where I gave birth - women only. The loos in the University Women’s Club were single sex.

Your disingenuous insistence OP, that none of us silly women could possibly know what a single sex space is like because we have always had unspottable transwomen sneaking in is utterly ridiculous.
A. Many spaces have been women only.
B. Women notice transwomen in their spaces.

Girls avoid mixed toilets at school in the UK. Its already causing problems.

WPUK, "The responsibility of schools in England
Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this.

In June 2018, the Department of Education reissued guidance from the Department of Education on the responsibilities of school in relation to ‘gender separation’.

Paragraph 13 clearly states:

“It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.”
womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

@jellyfrizz

Argentina is far from perfect for women, no place is. But why did implementing self ID not make it worse? Why can't you or anyone else provide stats that show it got worse?

Did you even read the article? It says it has got worse.

After that article they overturned the abortion ban in Argentina, did you not notice it is three years old?

Also someone's opinion X is worse, in this case something that GCs have never claimed is linked to self ID, isn't statistics.

Anyway, I am out. It's mothers day tomorrow. Sorry 'birthing vessel' day.

Have a good sunday everyone!

I once accidentally went into the gents in a shopping centre. I was 11 years old and still remember with a squirm the acute embarrassment I caused to the poor chap peacefully using the urinal

Loving the poetry by the way! Has Bernard's question been answered yet?

Kinda

Pretty much a No...ool can’t see why some women need a single sex space

Why does my five and a half stone teenage dd want to only use single sex space where she might be undressing OP ? Why could that be ?

@sanluca

Anyway, I am out. It's mothers day tomorrow. Sorry 'birthing vessel' day.

Have a good sunday everyone!

Oooh happy mothers day for tomorrow 💐

[quote R0wantrees]Girls avoid mixed toilets at school in the UK. Its already causing problems.

WPUK, "The responsibility of schools in England
Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this.

In June 2018, the Department of Education reissued guidance from the Department of Education on the responsibilities of school in relation to ‘gender separation’.

Paragraph 13 clearly states:

“It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.”
womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/[/quote]
How can "Self ID" be causing problems when GRA Reform hasn't gone ahead and we don't have legal self declaration for trans people in the UK?

Not only can you not demonstrate any issues in countries with Self ID, you are blaming issues in the UK that are not even related to Self ID to Self ID that isn't in place!

hello again @ool0n I can't tell you how pleased I am that you're still here!

now then

why might women prefer to use a toilet with no men in it?

Loving the poetry by the way! Has Bernard's question been answered yet?

I think women who don't want to be in a vulnerable position in the same room as a strange man are hateful bigots...but I'm seeking clarification

@SirVixofVixHall sorry to say that a friend of mine is training to be a nurse, doing her training on many wards. Do you think she'd be banned from using those loos you used because she is trans? Bubble about to burst - that was a "mixed sex" space by GC standards.

I re-appeared for a bit but now I seem to be fading out again

why might women prefer to use a toilet with no men in it?

Staff don't use patient toilets on post natal wards.

After that article they overturned the abortion ban in Argentina, did you not notice it is three years old?

Yes. Later articles showed crazy increases in violence against women but I avoided these because apparently COVID caused men to hurt women.

bernards fading...everybody clap!!!

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

hello again *@ool0n* I can't tell you how pleased I am that you're still here!

now then

why might women prefer to use a toilet with no men in it?

They currently use toilets with no men in them. But not by GC defn, hence GCs say the spaces women use right now, and prefer are mixed sex. They also claim, with no basis, that those women would prefer to use spaces where trans women are banned. But they can't explain why since those spaces have never been single sex by their defn.

Wait...thats for fairies

Forget i said anything

There once was a woman called Bernard
Who struggled to make her question heard
Sometimes ool0n could see her
And an answer seemed near
And other times he chose to bore on about stats and an imaginary group of people called GCs in a really very tiring way

How can "Self ID" be causing problems when GRA Reform hasn't gone ahead and we don't have legal self declaration for trans people in the UK?

Many organisations "got ahead of the law" and implemented 'self id' policies.
In 2018 Swim England's 'self id' policy led to the wonderful #ManFriday action in two pools' men-only swim sessions.
(Swim England withdrew their policy)

Hannah Clarke, "I’ve called ManFriday a movement, I think a better word might be concept. We are a loosely organised group of women who are horrified by the implications of self identification and the resultant erasure of women. We are making a stand against what is happening by self identifying as men on Fridays. We show how preposterous it is to be able to self-declare as the opposite sex by doing exactly that.

This all came about when Amy Desir took it upon herself to address the ludicrous guidance Swim England produced to engage trans people in swimming. This guidance, soundly rejected by the good ladies of Mumsnet, included such gems as telling us women who object to penises in their changing rooms require education, whilst our boobs should be covered at all times for fear of causing offence. Amy started a Mumsnet thread one Friday morning in February telling us that she had arranged a meeting at her local pool to discuss her inclusion in men only swimming sessions as a self identified man in accordance with the guidance."
manfridayuk.org/2018/05/18/why-manfriday/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html

metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/group-women-self-identify-male-infiltrate-men-swim-session-7398106/

@jellyfrizz

After that article they overturned the abortion ban in Argentina, did you not notice it is three years old?

Yes. Later articles showed crazy increases in violence against women but I avoided these because apparently COVID caused men to hurt women.

DV has been a disaster to women worldwide in lockdown. Really illustrates that the 90%+ of violence against women being from people they know is the real issue.