GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

you saw me @ool0n!

clap again please Rufus I think it's working!

now, let's see if we can get to the point of answering the question

can you think of some reasons why women might like to use toilets that don't have any men in them?

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I'm actually now quite impressed by the ability to consistently skare around Bernard's really quite simple question. I've not seen such fantastic obfuscation since Trump was in power. Gotta love misogny dressed up as concern. Still I'm glad to have learnt where I was going wrong with all my desire to create a world which respects everyone's rights rather than just a select few. Good to have had it explained to me. I expect the damage done by multiple male assaults will now just evaporate.

[quote R0wantrees]How can "Self ID" be causing problems when GRA Reform hasn't gone ahead and we don't have legal self declaration for trans people in the UK?

Many organisations "got ahead of the law" and implemented 'self id' policies.
In 2018 Swim England's 'self id' policy led to the wonderful #ManFriday action in two pools' men-only swim sessions.
(Swim England withdrew their policy)

Hannah Clarke, "I’ve called ManFriday a movement, I think a better word might be concept. We are a loosely organised group of women who are horrified by the implications of self identification and the resultant erasure of women. We are making a stand against what is happening by self identifying as men on Fridays. We show how preposterous it is to be able to self-declare as the opposite sex by doing exactly that.

This all came about when Amy Desir took it upon herself to address the ludicrous guidance Swim England produced to engage trans people in swimming. This guidance, soundly rejected by the good ladies of Mumsnet, included such gems as telling us women who object to penises in their changing rooms require education, whilst our boobs should be covered at all times for fear of causing offence. Amy started a Mumsnet thread one Friday morning in February telling us that she had arranged a meeting at her local pool to discuss her inclusion in men only swimming sessions as a self identified man in accordance with the guidance."
manfridayuk.org/2018/05/18/why-manfriday/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html

metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/group-women-self-identify-male-infiltrate-men-swim-session-7398106/[/quote]
All of this without a single bit of evidence that there were any issues with their policy, that it had ever been abused or ever would be. Slow clap to them there, they managed to punch down on 0.6% of the population and make their lives a bit harder. That's gender critical feminism to me alright.

nearly at the end of the thread

you don't much seem like a person given to introspection @ool0n

but if you ever do think things over, maybe consider why you are so unwilling to articulate even to yourself why women may not want to be in a vulnerable position in the same room as a strange man?

article from #RepealTheGRA website:

'A Safeguarding Nightmare'
(extract)
We see and object to the dire impact that the GRA has had on the maintenance of sex and aged based safeguards in the UK. Women, as the majority in matters of caring, are more easily attuned to risk prevention. We know that almost anyone can present a risk to a vulnerable person but it is far more likely to be a man who commits sexual or violent offences. Allowing men to hide their sex is the worst safeguarding fail imaginable. Safeguarding is about managing risk and men (yes, yes, we know, not all of them) present risk. The most vulnerable people in our society are women, children, old people, prisoners (yes, really), those with severe mental health issues or physical disabilities, and those living in poverty. Safeguarding protocols are absolutely fundamental for the protection of those that need it most. It is unconscionable that the GRA functions to obscure risk." (continues)

We believe this capture has occurred in service of gender ideology throughout important institutions and organisations in the UK - the NSPCC, the NHS, schools, government departments, the Crown Prosecution service, the courts system and more.

We have seen many abuse scandals in the UK and the common denominator in all of them is always a failure to safeguard or apply safeguarding protocols without fear or favour. The GRA undermines safeguarding in a particularly insidious way. We are tired of hearing about how these failures led to atrocities and we want to see safeguarding front and centre in public policy. It is not good enough to react with moral outrage after the event and for politicians to wring their hands and say how could we have known?" (continues)
www.repealthegra.org/a-safeguarding-nightmare

I wasn't assaulted at home. Does that mean it doesn't matter? Like most women who are lucky enough to have a safe home, I still feel anxious walking to it at night. Does that not matter?

Nearly 1000 posts on this thread and nearly all of them, apart from the OPs, are saying that women don't want males in sex-segregated spaces.

OP must have an ego the size of a planet to keep on telling women they're wrong.

No is a complete sentence. Try and hear it.

I think you do genuinely believe that rape victims are 'punching down' when they don't want to be in a vulnerable position in the same room as a strange man don't you @ool0n?

as I said, grimly fascinating.

@unwashedanddazed

Nearly 1000 posts on this thread and nearly all of them, apart from the OPs, are saying that women don't want males in sex-segregated spaces.

OP must have an ego the size of a planet to keep on telling women they're wrong.

No is a complete sentence. Try and hear it.

^ This

[quote stonecat]@ool0n

Let's throw all safeguarding out the window then, since most women are abused or assaulted at home. Fuck the rest of them. It's only 10% or so. [/quote]
"Safeguarding"? You know that applies to children and vulnerable adults, elderly with dementia etc. You think women need to be "safeguarded" like children? Saudi Arabia has you covered there, literally!

OP women don't want to be in a vulnerable position (e.g changing room) with someone with a penis. That is all the evidence you need. Do you really think that what all the women here are saying just doesn't matter and that you really do know what's best for us?

No is a complete sentence. Try and hear it.

Same old, same old. Our thoughts do not count. Men's do.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I think you do genuinely believe that rape victims are 'punching down' when they don't want to be in a vulnerable position in the same room as a strange man don't you *@ool0n*?

as I said, grimly fascinating.

We're really going for the emotive straw-enbys now then? I guess not being able to explain why you want a space with no trans people in it is taxing.

We're really going for the emotive straw-enbys now then? I guess not being able to explain why you want a space with no trans people in it is taxing.

It's been explained repeatedly. What makes it so hard to listen to peopel who have a different opinion to you?

No is a complete sentence.

This ^^

@R0wantrees

No is a complete sentence.

This ^^

Also this!

@Minezatea

OP women don't want to be in a vulnerable position (e.g changing room) with someone with a penis. That is all the evidence you need. Do you really think that what all the women here are saying just doesn't matter and that you really do know what's best for us?

When you are campaigning for male cleaners to be banned from those spaces I'll believe you. But I've never seen a GC campaign to truly ban men from those spaces.

• Male prison guards rape and assault women - silence from GCs
• Male cleaners have free reign to enter women's spaces - silence from GCs despite the potential for predators to exploit this

[quote R0wantrees]Girls avoid mixed toilets at school in the UK. Its already causing problems.

WPUK, "The responsibility of schools in England
Schools must provide separate sex provision for children over 8 as outlined in the Schools Premises Regulations (2012). The guidance is quite clear on this.

In June 2018, the Department of Education reissued guidance from the Department of Education on the responsibilities of school in relation to ‘gender separation’.

Paragraph 13 clearly states:

“It is permissible for toilet and boarding accommodation facilities to be separate as they are captured under existing statutory exceptions. Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012, which falls within the exemption provided for in Schedule 22 of the Equality Act 2010.”
womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/[/quote]
And the definition of 'sex', 'boys', 'girls' and how trans boys or trans girls are to be regarded under the 2012 Regulations is to be found where?

Male cleaners announce themselves so we don't have to go in if we don't like it.