GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

I am. If you don't agree I'm a man and believe me self identifying as one then I can't help you there.

But what is it that makes you a man? How do you know you're a man?

I always found the disabled loo generally had nappy changing facilities. Or a change mat in the car / other quiet space. Not once did my dp find the need to use the women's to change nappies. He had more respect for women though and knew how to behave appropriately.

Why do you think some women prefer to use single sex toilets OP ?

And how do you know your'e a man oolon? What is it that makes you male?

There is no point at all debating with this poster. He is here in bad faith and is just handwaving any evidence away. Given the utter science denialism by trans activists, it's comparable to trying to make flat earthers see sense.

OP, if you've been using ladies toilets (for whatever reason), you have been making the women in there uncomfortable and intimidated. Going by your comments on this thread, that's been your intention.

As always, thanks to @BlueLipstickRocks for giving your experiences. I'm sorry that your voice is being silenced in this debate.

I don't know a single man who would do what the OP did. They'd be disgusted at the suggestion

Same here.

Still no answer

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Absolutely nothing stopping you

Apart from consideration for others

Oh right, that doesn’t stop the OP

Definitely not, women waiting in queues for the loo should just use the mens if they want. They don't need to worry about scaring men using the urinals when they are separate to the cubicals. When there are cubicals why not just go in? I know plenty who do :)

Sexist toilet design means women often have to wait, not fair.

But of course male sexual predators can't enter the women's loo unless they have some elaborate cover story such as "I'm trans!" Oh dear. That's not how it works. You just have to create a climate where women can't call out men in the ladies for fear of being called bigots (already happening) and you create more opportunities for predatory men.

I have changed many nappies in all locations. That is why I always brought my changing mat.

I don’t understand why men are in women’s spaces though.

I went swimming regularly with my children years ago. I needed to get into the pool in order to do baby swim with the youngest. There was men’s changing, women’s changing and a special changing room for women and children as only men, not women were allowed to bring their children into their changing rooms.

I once came across a dad who brought his children to change in the women’s and children’s space. I was half naked. He said something about not wanting to take his girls (about 5/6) into the men’s changing room. He left when I told him I would report him if he stayed. Apart from the fact that I was changing, my oldest was the same age as his girl (and changing) but that was apparently fine.

@Erikrie

And how do you know your'e a man oolon? What is it that makes you male?

I just am, you don't agree that enough? I've never had anyone demand proof, gender critical parties must be lots of fun.

I’ll ask again

Why do you think some women prefer to use single sex toilets OP ?

BlueLipstickRocks did try. But like women, found themselves shouted down by the know it all cishet male ally who has no skin in the game, but clearly knows more than us. And wants to inform us of that fact.

I just am, you don't agree that enough? I've never had anyone demand proof, gender critical parties must be lots of fun.

But how do you know?

@WoolOfBat

I have changed many nappies in all locations. That is why I always brought my changing mat.

I don’t understand why men are in women’s spaces though.

I went swimming regularly with my children years ago. I needed to get into the pool in order to do baby swim with the youngest. There was men’s changing, women’s changing and a special changing room for women and children as only men, not women were allowed to bring their children into their changing rooms.

I once came across a dad who brought his children to change in the women’s and children’s space. I was half naked. He said something about not wanting to take his girls (about 5/6) into the men’s changing room. He left when I told him I would report him if he stayed. Apart from the fact that I was changing, my oldest was the same age as his girl (and changing) but that was apparently fine.

What a weirdo not wanting his kids in the mens changing room, what does he think will happen to them in there? He wasn't a gender critical man perchance? They do seem to have some funny ideas about what happens in male changing rooms and loos, I do think I'd not want to share a space with them.

I don’t call myself a GC feminist and have no issue personally with transwomen in the ladies bogs

And I’d be straight in the loos if i saw a man walking in shortly after my daughter

If the OP can't even define the word "man", he is certainly not capable of debating an issue this complex. We should have these discussions with people who have them in good faith, and have at least a basic understanding of words like "man" and "woman".

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I’ll ask again

Why do you think some women prefer to use single sex toilets OP ?

The gender critical lot just paid £100K to learn by the gender critical definition there is no such thing in the UK. You've never used one according to them. They're all "mixed sex" as trans people are allowed to use them. Apparently no women and men in the UK have had the experience of using a "single sex" loo. So how would they know what it's like and why they'd want one?

OP OP

You’ve missed my question again

Why do you think some women prefer to use single sex toilets OP ?

I do think I'd not want to share a space with them.

Is that why you decided to use the women's? When you are neither a woman nor identifying as one? Yet you decided you had the right to use that space anyway, regardless of the women in there.

Oh cross post

But you haven’t answered my question so I’ll ask again

Why do you think some women would prefer to use single sex toilets OP?

@stonecat

I have no idea about your friendship circle OP but the last thing I want to do is use the men's toilets. I'm pregnant and desperate for the loo constantly. I would never set foot in a gents toilet.

I don't know any women who would.

Oh and by the way, while you're in the ladies toilets making women feel uncomfortable, you're encouraging women to go into the gents where men WILL ALSO feel uncomfortable.

My father and grandfather would be absolutely mortified if a woman walked in whilst they had their flies down at a urinal.

Jesus Christ have some respect for societal norms.

I know plenty of women who have and do, especially when there are long queues. At University it was commonplace. Maybe going to a northern Uni I met different women to you?

"Jesus Christ have some respect for societal norms."

• I thought the defn of "gender critical" should frankly be that you don't have any respect for so-called societal norms?

And no OP, as per my previous post, the toilets at my work are single sex