GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

Trying to imagine this. So you see a tall, bearded man follow your daughter into the loos and you're fine with it as long as he tells you actually he's a woman?

It seems so. It's sad for his daughter really. Poor girl.

@stonecat

No they're not, according to the ECHR they're open to trans people. You'll be pleased to learn that after the £100K ruling. Workplaces have no more right to blanket ban trans people than any other space.

Yes @ool0n that's what we're discussing here. We think that is wrong. And we think that widening the trans umbrella with self-ID is dangerous.

Laws don't equal facts, as history has shown us.

We continue to fight.

How do you think these spaces have magically kept trans people out for the last 100 years?

This is what gender critical people don't seem to understand, they've pretended the law says what they want it to say. Which is why the ECHR ruling was probably such a surprise. Trans people have, and always will, use the spaces you call "single sex". Even if by some horrible miracle (Nigel Farage is prime minister) and they're banned from using the loo, they'll continue to use them as they always have. Although only if "passing" in that dystopia.

Maybe GCs should try and think up some way they can deal with that fact?

Yes @ool0n that's what we're discussing here. We think that is wrong. And we think that widening the trans umbrella with self-ID is dangerous.
To be fair, I don't think the OP actually meant us to discuss it, just to say we were wrong and give him a pat on the back for being such a great ally.

Oh hai OP

Why might some women prefer single sex toilets?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Oh hai OP

Why might some women prefer single sex toilets?

I think its your optimism i admire the most bernard

I think its your optimism i admire the most bernard

For me it’s your antlers Rufus

But I’ve always been all about the looks

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I think its your optimism i admire the most bernard

For me it’s your antlers Rufus

But I’ve always been all about the looks

Fairs...

They are awesome

One of the most boring Twitter feeds ever. What's the point in trying to impress a handful of people on Twitter? Find a hobby or something.

"Hey, I'm a guy with no skin in the game. I can't even tell you what a man is! Come and look at my screenshots where I've cherry picked from a thread that actually shows how ignorant I am. Please like me random strangers!"

ool0n do you think there is ever a need to separate some spaces based on whether people have a vulva or a penis?

Trans people have, and always will, use the spaces you call "single sex"

I'll say it again. Transsexuals have, by mutual consent, historically used womens spaces. The transgender umbrella and all it represents most certainly have not. The idea of someone with a penis using a woman's space never existed until recently.

@stonecat -- "A few years ago, men like the OP would piss their pants with excitement to be seen as a "feminist ally".

They've all jumped ship now.

What's in it for you OP? Because there's a lot at stake for women."

I try to be a feminist ally, and hope the great women feminists I know generally think I manage it. Probably not :P

You don't speak for "women", I know gender critical feminists don't think I'm a great ally to them, As they're obsessed with trans people, to the detriment of all the real issues affecting women. Issues that intersectional feminists happily fight against.

Not a single woman I know is GC, and I know of plenty of GC men and women who say they've lost all their friends because of their GC views. So why pretend you represent the majority of anything, not women, not feminists. Incidentally I see the GC party in Scotland did well, "silent majority" for ALBA.

How do you think these spaces have magically kept trans people out for the last 100 years?

Decency and respect kept most men out. You don't seem to have either of those things. The small amount of transexuals that used women's spaces lived along side women quite happily. Then people like you come along, someone with no skin in the game, determined to speak over women and transpeople about what should happen in those spaces. Is this so you can saunter into the women's too at your whim, as you have already shown that you do. Is that your motive?

@BlueLipstickRocks

Trans people have, and always will, use the spaces you call "single sex"

I'll say it again. Transsexuals have, by mutual consent, historically used womens spaces. The transgender umbrella and all it represents most certainly have not. The idea of someone with a penis using a woman's space never existed until recently.

You had to use women's spaces to get a GRC, two years living "in role" is a requirement to get a GRC. Debbie Hayton says she uses women's spaces and she has no GRC. The view you espouse isn't even followed by the few trans people who follow GC ideology.

I try to be a feminist ally,

First step to being an ally is to actually listen to those you are supposed to be an ally to.

It us no ally that disrespect boundaries and constantly corrects women towards their point if view.

For that matter you're no transsexual ally either.

Im afraid you're simply another deluded MRA activist.

Believe it or not OP, you are not an expert on women's loos despite using them when it's convenient. We know that some TW have been accessing women's toilets - but they were generally respectful, rare and so nobody kicked up a fuss. Nowadays there is a push for anyone, no matter how they present, to declare themselves a woman and access our spaces - and if we object, we are the bigots. That is the problem. The goalposts have moved and we're not accepting it.

oP, OP

Why might some women prefer single sex toilets?

@lonel

Believe it or not OP, you are not an expert on women's loos despite using them when it's convenient. We know that some TW have been accessing women's toilets - but they were generally respectful, rare and so nobody kicked up a fuss. Nowadays there is a push for anyone, no matter how they present, to declare themselves a woman and access our spaces - and if we object, we are the bigots. That is the problem. The goalposts have moved and we're not accepting it.

Yep

@Erikrie

How do you think these spaces have magically kept trans people out for the last 100 years?

Decency and respect kept most men out. You don't seem to have either of those things. The small amount of transexuals that used women's spaces lived along side women quite happily. Then people like you come along, someone with no skin in the game, determined to speak over women and transpeople about what should happen in those spaces. Is this so you can saunter into the women's too at your whim, as you have already shown that you do. Is that your motive?

Anyone of any gender can saunter into the women's loo at their whim, there are exactly zero laws prohibiting it. Hence male cleaners exist, and the day GCs campaign against that, given male predators would find it much easier to don a high vis jacket and mop than pretend to be trans - is the day I believe GC people care about men in these spaces and don't just use it as a cudgel to attack trans women.

[quote stonecat]@ool0n

I am not "gender critical" and I did not vote for Alba so I've no idea what the relevance there is.

If I cannot speak for women, you cannot speak for transpeople.

We carry on our way and you carry on yours. [/quote]
Absolutely, which is why I've tried to cite statistics for what the majority of trans people do and believe as I can't speak for them. So far no one has any answer to that.

First step to being an ally is to actually listen to those you are supposed to be an ally to.
It us no ally that disrespect boundaries and constantly corrects women towards their point if view.
For that matter you're no transsexual ally either.
Im afraid you're simply another deluded MRA activist

Yes to all this.

It's interesting that despite 'the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC' that's there's nothing in the media about it. I just checked, using various different search words. Nothing. If it's such a big victory, then why it is not being lauded all over the place? It's not because trans voices are being silenced by the media - organisations are falling over themselves to be 'inclusive' (see the pronoun use in the reporting of sex crimes by transwomen for example).

Is it because trans activists know, perfectly well, that the majority of the population (most of whom aren't really aware of the discussion) consider toilets to be single sex and this would be a tipping point for many people? This is all being done by stealth so that when people realise what is happening and start to question it, a precedent has been set, 'it's always happened'.