GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

@lonel

Again, we are not talking about what people say they want or intend but what they actually do. Is that so hard to grasp? And are you ever going to answer my question?

I've said many times what they say they want is extremely relevant when the claim is they don't want to medically transition. The stats for trans people who have already medically transitioned is massively higher than the stats presented by gender critical people. But when cost and waiting lists are so high/long, it's understandable when trans people have not been able to start their transition.

Or have I missed something?
Yes. You've pointedly missed actually engaging with what people are saying including answering my question. But you know that.

@lonel

because in gender critical lore they're all fakers You do realise you're the only person who has suggested that on this thread? So you are bringing up arguments yourself so that you can shoot them down and post them on Twitter. Cool.

That's exactly what was said earlier in the thread, 90% are not "true transsexuals" who want to medically transition. And you accuse me of not reading the thread.

Why are you so overly invested in something that doesn't impact on you?

I've said many times what they say they want is extremely relevant when the claim is they don't want to medically transition. The stats for trans people who have already medically transitioned is massively higher
So now you're saying that only tw who have medically transitioned should be treated as female? Otherwise why would it matter?

Yes I think you have missed something - you’ve missed the difference between wanting to or intending to do something and actually carrying out that something.

ool0n

Being trans doesn't mean you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of trans people without giving a good reason.

Oh the irony. But good to know.

You have a GRC you say? So you had to "Self ID" and "live in role" for two years minimum before getting your appointment with the panel.

You are clearly absolutely clueless.

I never self identified. I went fir psychiatric and psychological support. I was assessed by multiple practitioners over several years and I transitioned with their support. I received feminising hormones and testosterone blockers and after several years was reassessed before going on to have surgery. About 18 months later I submitted medical documentation to the panel and was accepted.

There is no "appointment" with the panel and living in role doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. Contrary to popular belief a GRC did not require me to use womens spaces whilst transitioning.

@lonel

Or have I missed something? Yes. You've pointedly missed actually engaging with what people are saying including answering my question. But you know that.

Oh dear, I missed your question...

"Would you be happy for your daughter to go into a public toilet if you had just seen a man walk in or would you be worried for her safety? If not, why not?"

I am that man, kids are so old now I don't have to change any nappies. But it wasn't at all uncommon for me to use changing facilities in the women's loo. My eldest daughter (Youngest daughter still tends to always go in with one of us, often the mens with me) has also been in the loo when there are cleaners in there. Any man with a high vis jacket and a mop will be fine in any women's loo or changing room.

And you accuse me of not reading the thread.
No. Either you have trouble reading or you are being deliberately goady. Just like your selective quoting on Twitter.

Being trans doesn't mean you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of trans people without giving a good reason.

However being a man means you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of women without giving a good reason.

BlueLipstick I appreciate your views on this thread and I will try to answer as honestly I can.

They should not be locked up with men. Should they be locked up with women?

The short answer is I don’t know.

The long answer.... I personally make a huge difference between a) the old school trans women who has had gender reassignment surgery and b) any self ID transwoman. I would be comfortable sharing a communal changing room with a.

I am just very wary about giving consent for other women. In addition I believe that many women in prisons are extremely vulnerable and have histories of male abuse and in some cases prostitution. Would they perceive the old style trans woman as male and be triggered?

I know too little about how these dynamics would play out. I think it should be investigated thoroughly in order to establish what is at stake for everybody’s mental health. I don’t think that experimenting with this is fair on anyone.

But I am only speaking for myself here. I know many women take a much harsher view and again, I don’t want to speak for other women.

If women in prison would be found to suffer mentally from being locked up with an old style trans woman I do believe that another solution would need to be found which would keep everyone safe and as mentally well as possible. The trans woman would need to socialise with others and be physically safe, the biological women would need to be physically safe and not triggered.

Notably, the discussion above does not concern anyone with a penis. They should never be locked up with women. Under any circumstances.

Does that answer your question?

Any man with a high vis jacket and a mop will be fine in any women's loo or changing room.
I'm not talking about cleaners though! To be clear - you see a man go into the loos and you are fine with your young daughter going in there unaccompanied?

Any man with a high vis jacket and a mop will be fine in any women's loo or changing room.

Noone disputes the man will be fine. Every thought to consider the women?

@BlueLipstickRocks

Being trans doesn't mean you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of trans people without giving a good reason.

However being a man means you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of women without giving a good reason.

Please present this data, it sounds interesting, I love arguments backed by data.

@ool0n

You’ve still answered Ionel’s question.

It didn’t ask about you going into women’s toilets. It asked about your daughter going into the ladies having seen a man (without a baby or child with him, and not in a hi-vis) go in.

Would you mind having another go at expressing your thoughts on allowing your young daughter into public toilets in this scenario?

I hope the op isn't trying to get this thread pulled so they can get sticker.

It's incredibly informative, and I, for one, I would like it to remain.

@lonel

Any man with a high vis jacket and a mop will be fine in any women's loo or changing room. I'm not talking about cleaners though! To be clear - you see a man go into the loos and you are fine with your young daughter going in there unaccompanied?

I just told you I've done that, gone into the women's loo with my baby daughters. No one had an issue with it. Maybe you need to combat the problem of predatory men having babies to get "access to women's spaces". I mean we know predatory men have to go to extreme lengths to get access to women to abuse (not), so they have to pretend to be transgender and why not get a baby just to get in that precious women's space!?

One in ten trans people (10 per cent) don’t want any form of medical intervention

There’s no point engaging with the OP who by his own declaration is here in bad faith.

However when looking at those stats it’s worth bearing in mind that all that’s being measured is intention to have some form of medical treatment

That could be silicone breast implants, hormone treatment or if we’ve got a very broad set, laser hair removal

It tells you nothing

I just told you I've done that, gone into the women's loo with my baby daughters. No one had an issue with it.

Did you ask each and everyone of them? Or did you just assume and take the liberty anyway. Just like you do when you talk over women and transpeople from your male ally cishet perspective.

I hope the op isn't trying to get this thread pulled so they can get sticker.

True. Maybe we should just leave him to it.

I just told you I've done that, gone into the women's loo with my baby daughters.
But we're not talking about babies! What about that age, let's say 10 when your daughter is more independent. What do you do in that scenario? Don't you think women and girls should be allowed the same freedoms as boys or are you suggesting they need to be accompanied by a male guardian?

[quote Leafstamp]@ool0n

You’ve still answered Ionel’s question.

It didn’t ask about you going into women’s toilets. It asked about your daughter going into the ladies having seen a man (without a baby or child with him, and not in a hi-vis) go in.

Would you mind having another go at expressing your thoughts on allowing your young daughter into public toilets in this scenario?[/quote]
My daughters' used unisex loos as well, why would that worry me? You do know 90%+ of abuse of women is from someone they know. In the home usually. But of course abuse by trans women (To my knowledge only ever happened once, in decades, in Scotland) is what I need to worry about. Not anything that could realistically be an issue for her such as a dodgy relative, boyfriend, partner as she gets older.

This over investment in trans women being a "danger" to women is out of all proportion to any risk. Hence people assume the gender critical people obsessed with trans women have a problem with them.