GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

And here's the kicker: why @ool0n did you make the choice as a father to take your little daughters into the women's toilets and not the men's?

Indeed. Because if male bodies are safe to go in the women's, then little girls are safe to go in the men's right?

The last couple of posters aren’t talking about transwomen

They are asking if you would be happy for a man to follow your daughter into the ladies toilet

And you don’t seem to be able to answer

@stonecat

why not get a baby just to get in that precious women's space!?

We've reached that time in the thread where things start to get silly.

There have been many instances of self-identified transwomen using women's sex-segregated spaces to assault or harass women.

I've yet to hear of any stories of fathers taking their little girls into the women's toilets in order to do the same.

And here's the kicker: why @ool0n did you make the choice as a father to take your little daughters into the women's toilets and not the men's?

If you can answer this I think you'll understand where we are all coming from.

"why @ool0n did you make the choice as a father to take your little daughters into the women's toilets and not the men's?"

Because sexist policies meant at the time that women's loos had changing facilities and not the mens. Much less of a problem now, but this was some time ago, and honestly in some dodgy pubs in the countryside. Bigger places were always ok.

Do not look at this link if you are at work....

twitter.com/heke_nig/status/1383631390701281286?s=21

This shows exactly why male bodied people have no place in female spaces.

(Executive summary of link - lots of publicly available video of trans women wanking in ladies loos - nasty!!!!)

You do know 90%+ of abuse of women is from someone they know. In the home usually.

It's hard to get a true picture of that because so much goes unreported. I have never been assaulted in the home. I have been assaulted by unknown males outside of the home.

But it wasn't at all uncommon for me to use changing facilities in the women's loo.

So a 'cishet' male person happy to ignore women's privacy, dignity, sense of security and boundaries by going into their single sex spaces starts a thread on how spaces are open...

Please present this data, it sounds interesting, I love arguments backed by data.

There's plenty of data including some posted on this thread. You just refuse to accept it so I won't waste my time. You don't want to be proven wrong you want to find an excuse to tell me I'm wrong.

OP can you explain how women are safe in spaces where these people are? And why women should have to put up with this?

This over investment in trans women being a "danger" to women is out of all proportion to any risk

No

Men are a potential risk to women. It’s why some spaces are set aside to preserve women’s safety, privacy and dignity, and why the OP should never have been in a women’s toilet, regardless of how convenient it was for him

This over investment in trans women being a "danger" to women is out of all proportion to any risk.
You really are being obtuse. If anyone who identifies as a woman can enter women's spaces that is open to everyone. And so single-sex spaces become unisex - which are riskier to women. Male sexual violence is not rare at all.

So why didn't you take your little girl into the men's oolon?

I have never been assaulted in the home. I have been assaulted by unknown males outside of the home

Ekrie

Me too

Oh dear, you’ve misunderstood again. This is not about transwomen being dangerous (necessarily), this is about dangerous men pretending to be transwomen, or actually not even pretending to be transwomen but just accessing women’s spaces because they think they can.

Can you see this?

And can you see how difficult it is to tell apart a non-harmful transwomen and a dangerous man?

Ekrie and Bernard

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

The last couple of posters aren’t talking about transwomen

They are asking if you would be happy for a man to follow your daughter into the ladies toilet

And you don’t seem to be able to answer

"if you would be happy for a man to follow your daughter into the ladies toilet"

• I wouldn't be happy for a man, woman or enby to follow my daughter into an enclosed space when they have no reason to. Your question implies bad intent as you meant it to.

Would you be fine for some strange woman or enby to follow your child into the toilet? I'm assuming you wouldn't for a man to.

Oh dear, you’ve misunderstood again. This is not about transwomen being dangerous (necessarily), this is about dangerous men pretending to be transwomen, or actually not even pretending to be transwomen but just accessing women’s spaces because they think they can.

Female single sex intimate space is for girls and women's dignity and privacy as well as safety.

Would you be fine for some strange woman ...to follow your child into the toilet?

She’d be using the toilet you doofus

Of course a strange women would and could follow my daughter into the toilet (not the cubicle but the toilets) it’s the Ladies toilet!

@stonecat

Once you're daughters were old enough not to need a changing table but still needed an adult to accompany them, did you still take them to the women's toilets and not the men's...?

Why?

And once they are old enough to pop in but themselves to the toilets at the cinema, or the trampoline park or wherever, can they just wander into the men's if there's a queue at the ladies? Since it's safe for them?

I've always taken by daughters into the mens with me when they didn't need changing. I had a very fun exchange with a gender critical feminist on Twitter who told me I was a bad father for that as they might see gasp a penis gasp. I should have told my wife to take them in .... she didn't explain what happens when I was with them alone, maybe I should have asked some random strange woman to go in with them (safeguarding!)

wouldn't be happy for a man, woman or enby to follow my daughter into an enclosed space when they have no reason to
Struggling to understand this. How would you know what their intent was??

Why are you so scared of gender non conforming men using the gents OP?

You’re certainly tying yourself in knots to explain why it shouldn’t happen

@stonecat

Self-identification opens the door for any man to legitimately enter women's spaces.

This is a concern.

Men do not have to fear trans men entering their spaces. They do not pose the same threat.

That is not the same as saying all transwomen are a threat. 🙄

Did you miss the original post? Trans women have and always will self identify into spaces. Gender critical feminists paid £100K to find this out reecently. So according to you this should already have happened. This should be happening in all the countries with legal self ID now... Please show me the stats in increased assault ... Oh they don't exist, strange eh?