GRA Reform, Legal Self Declaration, has no effect on access to spaces

[ool0n]

I'm wondering given the recent convincing defeat of gender critical ideology in the high court vs EHRC - if the Mumsnet gender critical people finally accept the fact that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces?

People on the other side of the debate like myself have been explaining to GC people on Twitter for years that having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces so their objection to GRA reform is/was unfounded. I/we based this on -

1. English government legal analysis that stated having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces
2. Scottish government legal analysis ... ditto ...
3. The EA 2010 and GA 2004 text
4. The practical impossibility that a BC (Not an ID document) could be of any use in deciding access

now we have

1. Gender critical crowdfunded challenge to EHRC guidance that says having a GRC has no effect on access to spaces. Comprehensively lost, not even passed the very low bar to even be considered for a Judicial Review.

Given this is the case will gender critical people be reevaluating their assertion "Self ID", as in GRA Reform, must be opposed as it effects access to spaces? Trans people have always been able to "Self ID", in the colloquial sense, into men's and women's spaces. So making it easier for trans people to change their birth certificates only helps them, has no effect on GC feminists, and/or cisgender women and spaces.

(I also wonder if there'll be any introspection as to why an obviously incorrect interpretation of the law was able to become so prevalent in gender critical circles. Maybe listen to groups outside of GC circles a bit more?)

@SirVixofVixHall

OP Britain is not the US. Why do you keep harping on about the stats you say are accurate in the US ?

UK trans people are entirely different to US ones then? Or can you not dismiss this data without resorting to the silly conspiracies the other poster used to try and ignore it.

(I'm cishet)
Suspicions confirmed. This is just a fun debate for you and you have nothing to lose. Why not try a bit of empathy with those of us that do? Still waiting for an answer to my question...

You are one person, I linked data from 28,000 trans people in the US. If you have a criticism of that then give it. Being trans doesn't mean you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of trans people without giving a good reason.

I will quite easily dismiss the views of thousands if they are self ID. Why should I listen to people that declare themselves trans whose experiences don't match the reality.

Why are you giving away transsexualism to every idiot that declares themselves trans?

I am trans - Post Op transsexual with a GRC and honestly you're doing the complete opposite of what you think you are doing.

It seems to me the 'allies' are the absolute worst for this, whatever group they are being an ally for. When they have no skin in the game.

It seems to me the 'allies' are the absolute worst for this, whatever group they are being an ally for. When they have no skin in the game.
Agreed. Even when told by @bluelipstickrocks the OP refuses to understand that he's not helping transsexuals or women. It takes some determination to be so blinkered.

@bluelipstickrocks
I can guarantee that any male prepared to display original equipment is no transsexual!

That's it isn't it. What genuine transwoman would want to stand in a woman's changing room with their knob out? If the men that did this genuinely wanted to live as women they would never do this.

You are one person, I linked data from 28,000 trans people in the US. If you have a criticism of that then give it. Being trans doesn't mean you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of trans people without giving a good reason

We are in the UK. And without a doubt Bluelipstick has more knowledge and understanding from their perspective as a trans person, than you do as a male cishet ally

labioplasty

Do you mean vaginoplasty?

Here's another survey for you in the UK, given US trans people are apparently completely different for some reason...

"One in ten trans people (10 per cent) don’t want any form
of medical intervention – this includes 16 per cent of
non-binary people who identify as trans, 10 per cent of
trans men and four per cent of trans women."

Just four percent of trans women reported not wanting any medical transition in that survey, at that point.
www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_-_trans_report_final.pdf

@SunsetBeetch

labioplasty

Do you mean vaginoplasty?

It could be either to be fair. genderkit.org.uk/article/labiaplasty/

Here's another survey for you in the UK, given US trans people are apparently completely different for some reason...

Stop talking over women.
Stop talking over transpeople.

You have no skin in the game. Why are you inserting yourself into this?

why are you so desperate to violate women's boundaries?

Again, we are not talking about what people say they want or intend but what they actually do. Is that so hard to grasp? And are you ever going to answer my question?

@BlueLipstickRocks

You are one person, I linked data from 28,000 trans people in the US. If you have a criticism of that then give it. Being trans doesn't mean you get to dismiss data from 10s of thousands of trans people without giving a good reason.

I will quite easily dismiss the views of thousands if they are self ID. Why should I listen to people that declare themselves trans whose experiences don't match the reality.

Why are you giving away transsexualism to every idiot that declares themselves trans?

You have a GRC you say? So you had to "Self ID" and "live in role" for two years minimum before getting your appointment with the panel.

If there is any valid criticism you have of the statistics I've presented do tell me.

[quote ool0n]Here's another survey for you in the UK, given US trans people are apparently completely different for some reason...

"One in ten trans people (10 per cent) don’t want any form
of medical intervention – this includes 16 per cent of
non-binary people who identify as trans, 10 per cent of
trans men and four per cent of trans women."

Just four percent of trans women reported not wanting any medical transition in that survey, at that point.
www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_-_trans_report_final.pdf[/quote]
As PP said, these statistics are about what people want, not what actually ends up happening.

So, again pretty meaningless.

@Erikrie

Here's another survey for you in the UK, given US trans people are apparently completely different for some reason...

Stop talking over women.
Stop talking over transpeople.

You have no skin in the game. Why are you inserting yourself into this?

Me linking tens of thousands of trans people's lived experience is "talking over them"? Or do you mean not shutting up because there is one self identified trans person in this thread who also has no valid criticism of the data I've presented?

@ool0n You're obviously checking this thread but conspicuously not answering any questions. Why is that do you think? It's easy to post links, not so easy to actually engage with the arguments it seems. Has the penny dropped yet?

And still he persists. As an male cishet ally, but not to those with perceived wrong think.

How very jolly male.

I think you’ve had plenty for of valid criticism of the data you’ve presented @ool0n. By several posters.

@allLeafstamp the claim is trans women don't want to medically transition because in gender critical lore they're all fakers who just want to get into "women's spaces".... and pee, or something ... So it is extremely relevant to point out all the data from trans people contradicts the gender critical viewpoint.

It's confusing when "allies" dismiss genuine transpeople's experiences. I thought the party line was "sit down and shut up" when someone with real experience of the issues is taking

I know. It's so unpleasant isn't it. For someone that is neither a woman, or trans. One has to wonder why they are so invested in something that they have no lived experience of.

@Leafstamp

I think you’ve had plenty for of valid criticism of the data you’ve presented *@ool0n*. By several posters.

So far it's been handwaving dismissing the surveys from tens of thousands of trans people. Implying they must be lying, or saying what they want is "irrelevant" for reasons no one can articulate.

Or have I missed something?

because in gender critical lore they're all fakers
You do realise you're the only person who has suggested that on this thread? So you are bringing up arguments yourself so that you can shoot them down and post them on Twitter. Cool.