Britain's youngest trans child

[poshme]

Article in daily fail (sorry)

4 year old female twin says she is a boy (like her twin brother) and expresses interest in firefighters & police officers & doesn't like pigtails.

So the parents are transitioning their 4 year old and saying they have grown up conversations about gender with them.

Sigh.

Wow poor child.

Should be classed as child abuse to transition this child

The child will grow up and realise - I suppose - and be bloody angry.

Hell I’m still pissed off that my parents decided to get my (very long) hair cut when I was little because it was a pain in the backside when I went swimming.

If a child's gender identity is so easily influenced, how come he said he felt like a boy after being so heavily "gendered" as a girl since birth

I don't believe in gender identities.....and what i think has happened here is that the parents have treated the siblings very differently, even if subtly and unconsciously. This is clear in the expectations around appropriate clothing or play activities or interests.

The child wanted to be like their male sibling; receive that sort of attention and physical touch; not be constrained by having to 'be pretty' and wear stupid pig tails ( which can hurt the scalp when they are put in). the child does not know that this is what 'gender is' - but simply knows they don't like it and want to be treated like the sibling.

Young children just do not have such concepts or mental constructs; identities are formed out of environmental and familial factors.

In that family girl = pretty dresses and shoes that she can't get dirty ( no doubt); hair pulled painfully into pig tails etc; and 'boy' just seems far more preferable - plus the child gets to be just like the twin sibling, which is what twins tend to want.

A have a 15 year old girl who refused to wear skirts or anything pink from age 4, massive preference for ‘boys’ clothes, toys etc. An awkward puberty where she swathed herself in huge bulky joggers and sweatshirts, and then this year suddenly requested a school uniform skirt. This weekend she bought her first dress.
Expressing personal identity is one thing, encouraging such a significant change at such a young age --and plastering it all over the press-- is quite something else. Why can we not let children be children?

Sounds like my sister. She wore a dress when I got married (under sufferance) and has to my knowledge worn one since. That was almost 30 years ago.

Our parents just let her get on with it.

Great to see so interesting links there Shizuku. Particularly with the focus on social transition rather than medicalised transition for under 18s. Particularly in light of the news of the changes in Sweden.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4236343-The-main-clinic-in-Sweden-stopping-puberty-blockers-for-under-16-yr-olds

and this article, looking at the bone density issues caused by puberty blockers.

www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers-effects-bone-density/

It does reflect the findings of this study you kindly linked us too previously stating that females who have puberty blockers, then cross sex hormones, never quite 'remake' much of that loss.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/#S5title

Of course, we have discussed this and there is a large number of women who were diagnosed puberty blockers for precocious puberty who are building their class action in the USA all reporting bone density issues, and joint issues. Some have teeth falling out.

So, I am really pleased that you have focused on social transition.

However, I didn't see any about how to diagnose a 4 year old as being trans? Do you have anything covering how this would be actually done?

'Let Toys Be Toys' campaign

"We believe that play is an intrinsic part of child development and can help shape long-term attitudes and ambitions.

When toys and books are narrowly divided into ‘boys’ and ‘girls’ or by pink and blue, we risk limiting the possibilities and interests of our children."

www.lettoysbetoys.org.uk/

"How we started
Let Toys Be Toys is a grassroots campaign that formed off of a thread on parenting site Mumsnet, which brought together parents frustrated by the increase in marketing to children that pushed narrow stereotypes, especially ‘girls’ and ‘boys’ signs in the toy aisles. One evening, over a dozen participants decided to take action and the campaign was born."

Because really what the family are saying is the child does not conform to stereotypes, nothing more , nothing less.

No the family are not only saying that the child doesn't conform to stereotypes, they are saying that the child never identified as female, they are saying that the child knew their gender from as young as 18 months.

If they wanted to say that the child does not conform to stereotypes they would say 'our daughter does not conform to harmful gender stereotypes and has interests that would be seen as being stereotypically male'. They would not be calling their daughter to their son, and wouldn't be pushing for referrals for unnecessary medical intervention.

If a child's gender identity is so easily influenced, how come he said he felt like a boy after being so heavily "gendered" as a girl since birth

Pushback because they don't want to wear dresses that aren't practical and pretty shoes, that aren't comfortable. My daughter never wanted to wear those things either. Clearly heavily gendering the child has had a negative effect. Just let children be children. No need to identify them as trans, no need to push them down a transitioning pathway. They've got years to figure out what they want, if only adults would step back and let them in their own good time.

Bloody hell, I was the only girl with 3 brothers, I wanted to be a boy when i was 4 too, it seemed like more fun and the clothes were a lot more comfortable, I had many battles with my mother at that age about wearing dresses. I would have been transed nowadays

@AryaStarkWolf

Bloody hell, I was the only girl with 3 brothers, I wanted to be a boy when i was 4 too, it seemed like more fun and the clothes were a lot more comfortable, I had many battles with my mother at that age about wearing dresses. I would have been transed nowadays

YES! Boys jeans always have pockets. Girls rarely do. But instead fake pockets?? Who wants fake pockets?? 'Boys' clothes are generally more comfortable and practical. I nearly always buy my daughter boys jeans. She has no idea they're boys and would be quite disappointed to find out 'girls' ones don't usually have pockets.

@Bumblebeeanddog Oh the pocket thing pisses me right off. Now I'm older I do occasionally wear a dress (still only very occasionally mind you) but the biggest bonus ever is when you find a dress with pockets :')

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

Perhaps I should reword that as saying their explanations why they believe the child are based on stereotypes.

I agree what they are actually saying is so much deeper.

My grandson has a baby doll . He loves it and mothers it all the time .He also likes trucks and dinosaurs. All very healthy as far as I am concerned.

YES! Boys jeans always have pockets. Girls rarely do. But instead fake pockets?? Who wants fake pockets??
'Boys' clothes are generally more comfortable and practical. I nearly always buy my daughter boys jeans. She has no idea they're boys and would be quite disappointed to find out 'girls' ones don't usually have pockets.

I had a boyfriend once who borrowed his sister's jeans his were probably in the wash and he couldn't understand why the pockets wouldn't actually 'work'. For some unfathomable reason he decided to rip the pockets open, and discovered that this obviously didn't make them actual pockets 🤔

He clearly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer but he had been raised to know that wearing his sisters jeans did not make him a woman! Pity for this poor child that it was more important to the parents to be woke than get this message across.

Let Clothes Be Clothes
"Allies of Let Toys Be Toys, Let Clothes Be Clothes is a grassroots campaign calling on retailers in the UK to end gender stereotyping in the design and marketing of children's clothing, shoes and accessories.

Since children are child-shaped until puberty (with the same measurements on high street sizing charts), we believe separate boys/girls ranges are not only unnecessary, but exploit harmful gender stereotypes that limit children to outdated ideas about the role of men and women in society.

Let Clothes Be Clothes is calling on retailers in the UK to adopt a unisex approach to selling childrenswear, providing real choice, prevent bullying and help build a more equal society."
www.letclothesbeclothes.co.uk/

When DD was 4 she was convinced she was a horse. This, and variations on the same theme, are completely normal in 4 year olds. Where on earth are the professionals and why are these parents getting away with child abuse?

@Unsure33 that makes more sense, all of this stuff is based on harmful gender stereotypes. Cannot believe how regressive things are, these parents seeming to believe that girls can't be firefighters or police officers

[quote R0wantrees]Let Clothes Be Clothes
"Allies of Let Toys Be Toys, Let Clothes Be Clothes is a grassroots campaign calling on retailers in the UK to end gender stereotyping in the design and marketing of children's clothing, shoes and accessories.

Since children are child-shaped until puberty (with the same measurements on high street sizing charts), we believe separate boys/girls ranges are not only unnecessary, but exploit harmful gender stereotypes that limit children to outdated ideas about the role of men and women in society.

Let Clothes Be Clothes is calling on retailers in the UK to adopt a unisex approach to selling childrenswear, providing real choice, prevent bullying and help build a more equal society."
www.letclothesbeclothes.co.uk/[/quote]
Thanks for this link. I am really challenged buying clothes for my 11 year old. She only ever now wears black leggings and boys tshirts as girls clothes in her age range are so gendered and sadly sexualised.

Ever tried buying a girls top that is not a crop top, without a slogan or frills? ! I've given up.

@Porridgecake

When DD was 4 she was convinced she was a horse. This, and variations on the same theme, are completely normal in 4 year olds. Where on earth are the professionals and why are these parents getting away with child abuse?

The professionals are scared of their lives they'll be cancelled, fired, harassed etc they need to grow a backbone and get a bunch of them together to stand against this, if they really cared about their patients they would

When my daughter was about three or four she asked when she was going to grow her willy so she was like her brother. I said you can't because you are a girl. And that was then end of that.

My grandson has a baby doll . He loves it and mothers it all the time .He also likes trucks and dinosaurs. All very healthy as far as I am concerned

Or rather ‘fathers it’. Because as he shows looking after babies isn’t exclusively a mother’s role .

No the family are not only saying that the child doesn't conform to stereotypes, they are saying that the child never identified as female, they are saying that the child knew their gender from as young as 18 months.

Then the family do not understand child development and language acquisition.

Dr Katie Alcock
"So researchers are clear that we are talking about children’s knowledge of sex, and that this can’t change. A nice quote from a 2003 paper:
“Categorical sex is an essential, immutable attribute of people that is maintained (by self and others) independent of changes in physical appearance (e.g., in hairstyle, clothes, or make-up) and of changes in behaviour (e.g., cross-sex play behaviour or homosexuality).” (from Trautner et al., 2003, in the International Journal of Behavioral Development)
Nevertheless, it takes children some time to work out both whether they themselves are a girl or a boy, and that both they and others cannot change sex. Working out which they are themselves happens earlier, and is based in all the studies that have been done on physical appearance and stereotypes. Have a look at what James, aged 3, has to say on the matter
James is firm that having short hair makes him a boy, and that it also makes other people (and dolls) into boys. My own child aged four was convinced a teenager we knew must be a boy because she had short hair.

Making generalisations is a very useful skill for a baby or child — if they couldn’t make generalisations, they would never be able to work out that a new cat they saw was in fact a cat, or a new apple was just as good to eat as the last one, or a new car is likely also to go places. Children can work out at a very young age that there are men and women, boys and girls, in the world — it’s probably quite useful for them to work this out in the general scheme of things.

So when they see all the girls at nursery wearing pink and having long hair, well, that’s what girls do! And they also realise, from what people are saying, and from how their parents dress them, what toys they are given, and what toys other children who look like them (same clothes, same hair) what they are supposed to like and do based on what sex they are" (continues)
So, based on the idea that girls have long hair and boys have short hair, James is also age-perfect in thinking that when appearance changes, sex changes too. Until the age of about 7 (yes, 7 — in some children it’s older) children think that when something changes its appearance, its underlying reality changes too. This doesn’t just apply to sex, it applies to pretty much everything." (continues)

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

@NursePye

Jesus wept this is depressing. My 15 yr old DD was a tomboy par excellence. Never wanted princess dresses (or any dresses), nothing pink, has played football since she could walk, begged the teacher to be a shepherd instead of an angel in reception nativity and throughout primary all her close friends were boys. She now never wears skirts or dresses, doesn't wear any make up and still loves football. She's often said that she won't go to the prom because she couldn't bear dressing up like the other girls.

She's never once had any confusion about the fact that she is a girl growing into a woman.

Interestingly enough many of her contemporaries are now coming out as non-binary and these are exclusively the girls who grew up loving the princess dresses etc, having the pamper parties aged 7 etc etc.

Thankfully she finds this whole trend baffling and is quite aware of the importance of biology. As she said to me "shame I can't identify out of my horrendous periods isn't it!".

Worryingly she has told me that among her friends there is a desire to have had some trauma in your background as a sort of badge of honour. Apparently it is just not fashionable to have had a fairly stable upbringing or to have good self esteem.

Wonder when all this will end ...

Your daughter is a breath of fresh air! Maybe her confident example can influence other girls who also hate glam clothes.

I wanted to be a boy so badly until around the age of 12 when I accepted that it wasn’t going to change.

Looking back now I don’t think I had transgender issues but I just like boys things so I assumed I had to be a boy to act that way. I love being a female now but still enjoy ‘male’ hobbies.