Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

An eye-opening thread. Thanks to the op for being honest enough to admit their stance that sports should mainly be mixed sex. It takes courage to reflect on the consequences of one's beliefs and actually assert such a thing, no matter how much I disagree with it.
I do think the misleading thread title should be changed - Sex differences in sport is a really interesting subject and it's patently clear that the thread title was wrong about genital inspections being required in the bill being discussed.

@Shizuku

So let me see if I have the GC position correctly:

Even having a trans girl in the next cubicle in the changing rooms or toilet is such an affront to the dignity of all the other girls that she should be banned from the room altogether.

However, making girls have medical examinations, including having to show their genitals to a stranger just so they can play with the other girls is just fine.

I mean anything's OK as long as it enables you to exclude trans people, right?

And make no mistake - this is going to target gender non-conforming girls mostly, who are probably already being bullied for not being girlie enough. Now they actually have to prove they are "real girls" just to satisfy the far right and their close allies, the GCs.

You haven't read the whole thread, or you'd have seen that it is normal for all children, teenagers and adults participating in sport at above a fun run level to have to provide documentary evidence of age and sex, and once things get seriously competitive, they will be subject to drug testing requirements too, which will involve urinating in front of an official. They may also have to undergo medical checks as part of their training regime. There will be no targeting of GNC girls as they will be treated exactly the same as everyone else.

@ImpatiensI

Why do TRA get so much freedom on here? Thread title is dishonest and could be triggering but it's allowed to stand. Why is that ok?

The fake claim about genital inspections in the OP reminded me of the Bottom Inspectors Police comic-strip in Viz. That wasn't based on fact either, was it?

viz.co.uk/2014/10/09/come-look-bottoms/

I'm confused why people keep bringing in psychological 'hurt' into the argument. Weren't we told a couple of days ago that trans people do not experience psychological distress because of their trans-ness, ergo it was not a psychological problem? Sorry I do not have a link to that thread, if anyone else can find it that would be great if needed.
So which is it?
It seems to be a psychological problem when the argument suits, but not one when it doesn't?
So how can the young trans girl, deprived of playing sports with her natal female team members, possibly be feeling any psychological distress because of it? What about the other 90% of the team, do their feelings cease to matter?

ASugarr

Firstly, not all trans women are stronger than cis females. Especially if they are on puberty blockers they wouldn't be. So that is a myth

This topic has already been extensively and authoritatively covered by Ross Tucker at @ScienceofScience, Dr Emma Hilton, Dr Colin Wight and FairPlayForWomen. World Rugby spent months studying all the research and concluded female players were at least 30% more likely to be injured if a TW played and fairness was impossible.

Reducing testosterone for a few months makes virtually no difference to athletic performance. The difference between male and female sporting performance is huge, yes the odd TW who isn't very athletic might be a match for an elite female athlete - but women's sport isn't the mens B team where TW who couldn't win anything competing in their own sex class get a second crack at gold at a womans expense.

This isn't about opinion but hard facts and whether you believe females have a right to safe and fair sport or not. I do.

This isn't about opinion but hard facts and whether you believe females have a right to safe and fair sport or not. I do.

Me too. 💯

Dressage and show jumping. Because there the physical differences between men and women don't matter

A female jockey won this year's Grand National. The first time a woman has ever won it. Of course, it is the horse running the race, not the humans. The jockey's role is purely one of skill in riding and directing the horse.

I can imagine darts and snooker are sports in which there could be some equality too.....but most physical competitive sports need to be segregated for reasons of fairness, and of safety for women and girls.

@Nameitychangity

I'm confused why people keep bringing in psychological 'hurt' into the argument. Weren't we told a couple of days ago that trans people do not experience psychological distress because of their trans-ness, ergo it was not a psychological problem? Sorry I do not have a link to that thread, if anyone else can find it that would be great if needed. So which is it? It seems to be a psychological problem when the argument suits, but not one when it doesn't? So how can the young trans girl, deprived of playing sports with her natal female team members, possibly be feeling any psychological distress because of it? What about the other 90% of the team, do their feelings cease to matter?

Yes. What about the psychological hurt caused to the 12 Connecticut girls denied medals, records and sports scholarships because 2 boys identified as girls and were allowed to compete in girls sports, cleaning up in every contest?

What about the actual hurt caused to female rugby players playing against TW when they are at least 30% more likely to be injured?

The only argument for having TW and TG in women and girls sport is if you don't believe that females deserve safe and fair sport. I think that is the reality.

I always raise an eyebrow when I see such ridiculous supposedly pro trans statements being made with no reference as to the status of the poster. I am in little doubt that several of the comments have been made by trans people who refuse to identify themselves as such.

The nonsense I have seen here today about trans needs I find bizarre. Anyone who needs to remove someone else's rights to further their own needs to have a long hard look at what they are trying to achieve.

It is not transphobic in the slightest to acknowledge biological reality when it comes to competitive advantage and I say that as a post op transsexual with a GRC. I cannot deny the effects of testosterone in puberty and I consider it extremely disingenuous of those who do.

Those who claim to be pro trans on this thread do not speak for me and I question their agenda. I can think of at least one poster who I am convinced is simply here to troll. They have showed little interest in discussion but rather a relentless pursuit of proving everyone else wrong despite the evidence using manipulated arguments and gaslighting.

The transgender umbrella is now so broad that it is impossible to talk in general terms about "trans".
A self identified transwoman retains all competitive advantage.
A pre op transwoman on hormones still has a competitive advantage. The acceptable testosterone levels may be below that of an average natal male but they are still double that of a natal female. If a natal female had the testosterone levels of a pre op trans they would be disqualified.

A post op transwoman after 3 years on hormones still retains a 9% advantage due to increased lung volume, heart volume, bone structure etc..

As someone has noted above the arguments seem to shift on a case by case basis depending on what suits. It amazes me how one minute trans people are normal people and the next they are defenseless victims with psychological problems.

I'd have to be brainwashed or drugged to change my opinion that it's safe and fair for biological women to have to compete against biological men in sports that involve physical strength. I would consent to my DD and DS being expected to prove their sex through DNA (blood test) if they competed in such sport.
It's just commonsense!

I've only read your OP but you're lying and also wrong. How you think this will help your agenda is anyone's guess. Good luck.

^Anyone who needs to remove someone else's rights to further their own needs to have a long hard look at what they are trying to achieve.^
We'll said.

The physiology of any male bodied person playing contact sports puts women / girls at an unfair disadvantage and often also affects safety (i.e. is a danger to women and girls).

If you ignore the safety and fairness aspects (also privacy and dignity when it comes to changing rooms) and allow a male bodied person to play - say - women's rugby because they like to wear dresses or feel like a woman (whatever that means - never a credible answer provided) then that's straight up sex discrimination against other men who might want to play in a woman's team.

IF a TW can play rugby on a woman's team then so can a man. Any man. There is no credible reason for denying them.

At which point it's a mixed sex team, not the women's team.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Anyone who needs to remove someone else's rights to further their own needs to have a long hard look at what they are trying to achieve.

Have a Badass Badger Award for this comment alone!

🏆

@ASugarr, care to address the points made by BlueLipstickRocks ?

(FYI Blue, the OP is a self-identified cisgender woman. She is 25 and sees herself as a staunch trans ally)

🦡🌈🤍

Although I still believe trans men and women shouldn't be forced to play in teams they don't feel comfortable in I think at least the bill itself needs to be explicitly more defined

What has "comfort" got to do with it? Sport is about fairness as well as competitiveness.

I think transmen could very well feel 'uncomfortable' in male sports, though, and in most circumstances would have little chance of winning.

At the Manchester detransitioner event a couple of years ago one of the young detransitioners said that on first transitioning she would play in a male basketball team; but somehow, she never really felt that comfortable with it; but once she joined a women only team she started to loved the sport all over again.

A transman who was a serious competitor would have very little joy in most competitive male events, surely?

[quote goldielockdown2 ]I've only read your OP but you're lying and also wrong. How you think this will help your agenda is anyone's guess. Good luck. [/quote]

Lying to further an ideological agenda.

🦡🌈🤍

@CousinKrispy

I prefer to think that trans kids could be included in the team matching their natal sex, rather than excluded from something. Think of the many benefits to society of widening the bandwidth of what it means to be (biologically) male. If teammates and coaches engage in bullying any gender NC member, that absolutely must be addressed through robust antibullying policies.

Yes.

@ChristinaYang10

It says it may “require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.“ Whether or not that’s ok is a different argument, but (and maybe I read it wrong) it sounds to me like proof can be requested, and then the student can provide it in one of these three ways. Rather than that a physical exam can be insisted on (and certainly not, as the Twitter discussion seems to think, that anyone can insist on personally examining the student’s genitals). As I said, requiring students to provide proof at all is a separate discussion, but it doesn’t sound to me like anyone would be required to undergo a genital examination, thankfully.

So if a girl happens to have XY chromosomes, she has to opt for the vaginal examination?

Girls don't have xy chromosomes. Males do.
Glad we cleared that up.

Firstly, not all trans women are stronger than cis females. Especially if they are on puberty blockers they wouldn't be. So that is a myth

A transwoman wouldn't be on puberty blockers they would be on testosterone blockers and cross sex hormones. Only children are on puberty blockers and as far as I concerned a child on puberty blockers is a child being abused and experimented on.

If I assume the intended statement relates to testosterone blockers then this is blatantly false. The best case scenario is still a 9% advantage.

@transbadger please can you award asugarr with a special award for most bonkers thread that was easily disproved on the first page but still going strong god knows how many pages later?

I think this is an extraordinary achievement

[quote HermitsLife]@transbadger please can you award asugarr with a special award for most bonkers thread that was easily disproved on the first page but still going strong god knows how many pages later?

I think this is an extraordinary achievement[/quote]

@ASugarr has been nominated for a Smelly Badger Award. She is in hot competition with @Shizuku.

The results are not yet in.

🦡🌈🤍

I daresay a girl with XY chromosomes will be having quite a few examinations, apart from any related to sports qualifications.

So if a girl happens to have XY chromosomes, she has to opt for the vaginal examination?

Always ends up as "...but intersex..."

It is indeed possible for a person to have XY chromosomes and a vagina but such a person is genetically male and has a Disorder of Sexual Development. You cannot validate 600,000 to 1,000,000 "trans" people in the UK using tiny numbers of intersex.

Its very stiff competition.