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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genital Inspections

999 replies

ASugarr · 18/04/2021 05:24

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

OP posts:
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RedDogsBeg · 18/04/2021 15:29

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Deliriumoftheendless · 18/04/2021 15:35

So why can’t trans girls/women play against boys/men?

If so many natal girls/women can beat boys/men and it’s so safe why would it not be safe for trans players?

PotholeHellhole · 18/04/2021 15:35

Back when my Nokia 3310 mobile phone was Top of The Line tech, I remember learning that physical examinations in the women's Olympics had been replaced with karyotyping. Our science teacher told us how she had learnt to do karyotyping on her own cheek cell swab as a university project.

As I am typing this right now on a phone that not only beats my Nokia 3310 into a cocked hat but does almost everything my first desktop computer did, I assume that we haven't descended into a new dark age where all prior medical advances have been forgotten?

Once done in any athlete's career, it wouldn't need to be performed again, unlike, for example, PED tests.

This is a blog detailing instructions from a textbook printed in 1978 and a textbook printed in 1983.

Kaplan, B.J. (1978) Preparation of the normal karyotype (workbook). Chicago: American Society of Clinical Pathologists.
Macgregor, H.C. & Narley, J.M. (1983). Working with animal chromosome. New York: John Wiley & Sons

laboratorystack.blogspot.com/2016/05/karyotyping-definition-principle.html?m=1

doublehalo · 18/04/2021 15:35

Lol at the lies and misrepresentation of facts.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-42712961

How is the abuse reported in this link 'anti-trans'?

Because none of the women sexually abused were TW?

UsedUpUsername · 18/04/2021 15:41

Once again, as long as it's anti-trans, you'll turn a blind eye to any safeguarding issues

You are hardly worth listening to here. No one is being forced to consent to genital exams.

This will keep biological men and boys out of women’s sports. We know who they are, as per what’s happening in Connecticut. Those kids have gone through a very obvious male puberty and cannot provide documentation of their female sex.

Gender nonconforming girls do not go through male puberty, as you well know. They will be unaffected by these measures.

Trans children will have extensive medical history so no surprises there. They cannot provide an un-amended birth certificate. They will fail genetic tests. There’s no need to go any further.

It’s just a ridiculous assertion from a male politician who is against this measure.

RedDogsBeg · 18/04/2021 15:42

@Deliriumoftheendless

So why can’t trans girls/women play against boys/men?

If so many natal girls/women can beat boys/men and it’s so safe why would it not be safe for trans players?

It's certainly a head scratcher that one! I do know the answer and it's nothing to do with safety. Safety is another of those moveable feasts like fairness, dignity and privacy that shift around depending on the sex of the people wanting them.
Erkrie · 18/04/2021 15:43

Yes, who the fuck asked them to expand the bandwith of what it means to be female?

I believe it came from Alex Drummond initially. A Welsh transwomen with a beard who is expanding the bandwidth of woman women don't get a say on this

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-want-widen-bandwidth-gender-9686747

FreyaFolkvangr · 18/04/2021 15:50

What do you think the psychological effect would be on this girl if she was told she was only allowed to play hockey with boys?

I am really struggling to bring myself to care about that, to be honest. Are we supposed to have a crisis about the face that the child would feel suicidal?

I was a really talented dancer growing up. I was passionate about it. I wasn't as thin as some other dancers though and so I failed at several key auditions. That's life, though. I was really bitterly disappointed, had a brief crisis about what else I could do with my life that I would enjoy as much and then I moved on as I realised dance is just one part of life. There are kids everywhere who don't get what they want in sport - I keep thinking about the Olympics last year - some people will have trained for a lifetime for it but will be unable to remain at peak performance for long enough do as well a year or two down the line (gymnastics is one of those sports). Athletes make huge sacrifices to get anywhere and still often miss out on success or getting what they want. Life is unfair.

What we don't want to be doing is make life harder for girls, who already get the shitty end of the stick in so many ways. I am never going to say to them, you now have to compete against boys and be even more disadvantaged in the process because otherwise boys will be sad.

Nodal · 18/04/2021 15:52

Or turning children into entitled adults that have no resilience or coping skills because they've been bought up to believe they can have whatever they want, because they want it, no matter how unfeasible it is - like being the opposite sex to the one they were born as.

RedDogsBeg · 18/04/2021 15:54

Ah yes, Alex Drummond.

Women don't get a say, how very patriarchal and how very unsurprising.

BaseDrops · 18/04/2021 15:56

Women - we want to do x.

Men- fine compete with us to get on the team (lols women can’t). Or it’s not safe, no changing rooms, no loos, no ppe, space, insert other restriction that means men only.

Women - fine. We’ll make our own spaces, teams, leagues etc.

Then there’s the equality act to get rid of the stuff that allows discrimination for invalid reasons.

And here we are now.

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 18/04/2021 15:59

Yep. DS is disabled and may want to take part in the Paralympics one day. By the thinking of some it would be 'fair' to let able bodied people who 'feel' disabled to complete in his catagory. This is obviously not fair and yet it is entirely the same reason as letting males compete in the female catagory because of feelings.
As an aside, ds disability may be mild or not, we're not sure yet, but Paralympics have strict criteria for competing so he may not qualify for certain catagories or events. But it would be unfair for him to compete against others whose disability affects them much more. And disability really is a spectrum, unlike sex which as mentioned previously, has a strong bell curve for each sex.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 18/04/2021 16:00

@risefromyourgrave

Why can’t it just be accepted that the world isn’t fair? Someone might really want to be a supermodel but isn’t tall/thin/pretty enough. To make this fair the designers would have to make their clothes in many different sizes to cater to the different models, something they might not have time to do.

Someone might want to go into banking to make lots of money but can’t grasp the financial knowledge needed to succeed. To make this fair people have to accept that the unqualified banker might make a massive loss of millions of pounds, leading to many people losing their money.

Someone wants to be a pilot but is visually impaired so is not allowed. To make this fair we have to put airline passengers at risk.

A trans woman might want to play on a female only team/take part in female category sports but can’t because they are not a natal female. To make this fair we have to screw over girls and women who have been training their whole life to succeed in their field.

The world is not fair and equal. It never has been and never will be. We simply have to weigh up the risks and go for the safest option.

That's a good post.
Erkrie · 18/04/2021 16:00

Women don't get a say, how very patriarchal and how very unsurprising.

The same story that's been around for ever, under different disguises. But what's behind it is always the same.

YouSetTheTone · 18/04/2021 16:07

What do you think the psychological effect would be on this girl if she was forced to play rugby with boys? (changed the quote)

What about THAT girl? The one who then essentially has no choice but to either play with a sex capable of injuring her seriously or abandoning the sport.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 18/04/2021 16:09

To those asking about the senior school medical, this was at a grammar school in England in the early 1970s.

transbadger · 18/04/2021 16:11

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I think OP is identifying as someone who has read the bill, rather than actually being someone who has read the bill.
Badass Badger Award for you! @youvegottenminuteslynn

🏆

🦡🌈🤍

Odense · 18/04/2021 16:15

I think the faith of certain posters is rather touching.

In the midst of a whole load of rational and coherent arguments

LoOK At tEh pOor TrANsPerSOn. dOntMaKe tHeM SAD

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 18/04/2021 16:17

@Maduixa

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.

CS/HB 1475 - Sex-specific Student Athletic Teams or Sports, which is now before the Florida State Senate, does neither of these things. Full text of the current version is available here and the full legislative history including amendments adopted and voted down in the House is here. And - sorry, not sure if this is accessible outside the US - more detail on the House discussions is here. I don't see the Representative that allegedly endorses this "genital inspections!" moral panic showing up.

The proposed legislation doesn’t mention genital inspections; the only possibly relevant text is (lines 59-66): "The health care provider may verify the student's biological sex as part of a routine sports physical examination by relying only on one or more of the following: The student's reproductive anatomy; The student's genetic makeup; or The student's normal endogenously produced testosterone levels."

In real life, an annual physical for teenagers attending a US public school (and certainly for most involved in competitive sport) includes lying down on a table in your underpants only and a semi-transparent “johnny”. I apologise for the crudity, but this thread has a lot of delusion in it: in the vast majority of cases, no one has to touch or even bare your genitals to know what’s up. And that’s for kids who show up from abroad; US public school children will have a medical record which follows them (as long as they stay in the US) since they first started school, as they’d be obliged to show, at the very least, a vaccination history. The idea that a child’s paediatrician doesn’t know the child’s sex is disingenuous.

The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

This is exactly (apart from the conflation of gender and sex) what the bill seeks to PREVENT, by empowering the school to obtain and record this information up front - which they would do, as (if the bill passes) the school would then become the legally responsible party rather than any regional, state, or national bodies.

Many sports are mixed sex and women still (s)trive and win. Sure, and the bill explicitly acknowledges this, categorising competitive categories as all male, all female, or co-ed. The co-ed category is exempt from any of this.

Yet in primary schools in the UK you tend to change infront of others and play PE games with members of the opposite sex. True in the US too (except there normally would be separate locker rooms) - but this legislation specifically applies to secondary (12+) and tertiary (18+) education.

RE birth certificates, each US state issues its own and laws vary widely about what sexes can be recorded and how and when they can be changed. In California, for example, it is possible to have a birth certificate issued with sex of M, F, X, or blank, with the opportunity (but not the requirement) to amend later on. This was designed to address certain specific intersex conditions, but is not limited to such cases. Therefore, in some cases there is no legal record of sex.

Excellent informative post here. So good to have people posting who have taken the time and trouble to look beyond an emotive headline and dig out the facts, which (surprise, surprise) show that the media coverage is simplistic and misleading.
Nameitychangity · 18/04/2021 16:20

""However those who have been on puberty blockers and have taken estrogen for a while actually don't have those physical benefits so they are okay to compete.""

Do you do ANY research at all before you post these threads? You must know this is patently inaccurate and misleading. Of course there are physical benefits already conferred by being male.

Op how would you feel about a third and fourth category for sports? TW and TM? Would that not solve the problem? Why can't trans athletes compete in their own categories with other trans people and not expect natal women (or men) to shunt up to make room for them? Would you have any objection to that?

As far as your point about it being under 16s and therefore not relevant that men/women are physiologically different, my 15 year old nephew is already 6ft 5 inches tall and would easily outrun, and out class me in any sport he chooses. When he packs on a bit more muscle in a year or two it would be game over if he hit me at any speed in a sporting capacity.

ImpatiensI · 18/04/2021 16:21

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youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/04/2021 16:28

@MNHQ there has been some really useful discussion on this thread so it would be a shame to see it pulled, but the assertion in the first post that the bill being discussed requires genital inspection is entirely false. The bill does not require such a thing.

Is there a way of acknowledging that in the title / first post for new readers? This would be more useful than deleting the thread in the long run.

Whether a genuine misunderstanding from OP or a disingenuous misrepresentation of the facts, clarity is important in topics such as this.

When posts are frequently deleted during such discussions because they are considered phobic, it would only be fair to make it clear when something is demonstrably and unequivocally incorrect like the OP's initial assertion about the bill in question.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 18/04/2021 16:33

@ASugarr

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans. t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Sports are segregated by sex not by gender identity for obvious reasons - individuals who have been through male puberty have huge physical advantages over those who have not. The research is conclusive.

Females have the right to safe and fair sport. Transgirls are not banned but must play in their own sex class.

No genital inspections in the case of uncertain sex are required. A simple cheek swab is enough.

Mummyoflittledragon · 18/04/2021 16:33

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CirclesWithinCircles · 18/04/2021 16:37

As well as there being too many mediocre cheats, sport is also prone to providing a platform for people who either know very little about the sport or who are not very good at, telling people who are how to do said sport better and invariably getting it wrong.

(former County level runner, have friends who lost out on road race prize money to Lauren Jeska, who incidentally also won the Lucerne Marathon in the, womens category and ran in the elite women's field on the Great North Run.

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