Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

@IHateCoronavirus

In organised sporting events/clubs etc there will be a registration process, that is where the declaration of biological sex would be made. It wouldn’t be a case of needing to carry documentation everywhere.

We did a staff training day once where one of the facts they told us was the average adult female has the hand strength of the average 12 year old boy. It stood out to me at the time because DS2 was 12 and DS1 was 13.

At 12 both my boys, and most of their friends were only just beginning to head towards puberty, and yet despite being underdeveloped their strength was already they of an average female.

In which way do you propose to keep sport fair as safe for biological females when playing with/against much biologically stronger trans women?

Firstly, not all trans women are stronger than cis females. Especially if they are on puberty blockers they wouldn't be. So that is a myth.

At 12 have most boys entered puberty?

Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Do you believe any type of transitioning needs to take place first or should trans women and girls be able to play on the girls team from the very moment they decide they are female despite being physically male?

What about for Rugby? And independent review showed that trans women who have been through male puberty retain around a 30-50% advantage over their female co-players. Do you think this is safe for female players?

I agree with you on the genital checks btw, that is degrading.

In most cases, if sports weren't segregated by sex, female athletes would rarely win events or scholarships, get picked for teams, set records. It would be like abandoning age classification. Fit young males would win everything. No incentive to anyone else to train to a high level. And that's before we even start on the safety issues in contact sports.

@ASugarr

And reading what is said below "One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”". It is not reasonable.

Again, this is a person who is deliberately misrepresenting the policy in order to whip up opposition.

When you are arguing a case, it’s better to discuss the facts in a dispassionate manner rather than quote irrational opponents.

So your argument then is that because occasionally the sex of a competitor will be disputed, all girls and boys should compete together?

And if that is your stance, then we are back to the very first question in the thread:

Why are sports sex-segregated?

Birth certificates are often required for children’s sports for age confirmation. Teams that engage in any kind of serious competition often keep copies of the entire roster’s birth certificates handy at all times in case there is a challenge made to a member’s eligibility.

@SapphosRock

Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Do you believe any type of transitioning needs to take place first or should trans women and girls be able to play on the girls team from the very moment they decide they are female despite being physically male?

What about for Rugby? And independent review showed that trans women who have been through male puberty retain around a 30-50% advantage over their female co-players. Do you think this is safe for female players?

I agree with you on the genital checks btw, that is degrading.

I think as long as there is a history of being a transgender man or woman (not in medical procedures but through discussion with their doctor and all) then that's all that is required. I've seen, for some sports I can see the concern however I don't think this should be a rule for all sports.

This quote from a Guardian article regarding World Rugby shows there is a bit more nuance than 'trans women should play on the women's team. Period'

It is known that biological males (whose puberty and development is influenced by androgens/testosterone) are stronger by 25% to 50%, are 30% more powerful, 40% heavier, and about 15% faster than biological females.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/09/world-rugby-bans-trans-women-from-elite-womens-game-due-to-injury-risks

I realise this will probably be an unpopular opinion, but there are a number of girls from poor backgrounds in America who have trained in their chosen sport for years hoping to get a sports scholarship to university/college. This means training all year, spending numerous weekends at races or sports competitions, and then right at the end of their school career they are comprehensibly beaten in their chosen sport owing to trans competitors with much higher testosterone levels, meaning that they are faster and stronger. We have to protect trans children, I agree, but we also have to protect the rights and opportunities of young women too. This ruling, whilst unpalatable for some, has been brought in for good reason.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

In most cases, if sports weren't segregated by sex, female athletes would rarely win events or scholarships, get picked for teams, set records. It would be like abandoning age classification. Fit young males would win everything. No incentive to anyone else to train to a high level. And that's before we even start on the safety issues in contact sports.

Actually I strongly disagree. Many sports are mixed sex and women still trive and win.

Firstly, not all trans women are stronger than cis females. Especially if they are on puberty blockers they wouldn't be. So that is a myth.

We’ve discussed ‘cis’ before. You know that most of the women on here reject the term, so presumably when you use it you’re only talking about women who identify that way?

And it’s perfectly possible to check someone’s sex chromosomes with a saliva test.

So you don't believe sports should be segregated at all. We should just have men's sport then. That's a very sexist attitude.

[quote SapphosRock]This quote from a Guardian article regarding World Rugby shows there is a bit more nuance than 'trans women should play on the women's team. Period'

It is known that biological males (whose puberty and development is influenced by androgens/testosterone) are stronger by 25% to 50%, are 30% more powerful, 40% heavier, and about 15% faster than biological females.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/09/world-rugby-bans-trans-women-from-elite-womens-game-due-to-injury-risks[/quote]
Okay but if a trans woman has started the medical process of transitioning a lot of that decreases and there have been studies showing that they perform to the same athletic level as cis women.

Here is a video on the subject including resources in the description.

I think as long as there is a history of being a transgender man or woman (not in medical procedures but through discussion with their doctor and all) then that's all that is required. I've seen, for some sports I can see the concern however I don't think this should be a rule for all sports.

So which sports should it be a rule for OP? And why? What features mean one sport is sex segregated but another isn’t?

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

Firstly, not all trans women are stronger than cis females. Especially if they are on puberty blockers they wouldn't be. So that is a myth.

We’ve discussed ‘cis’ before. You know that most of the women on here reject the term, so presumably when you use it you’re only talking about women who identify that way?

And it’s perfectly possible to check someone’s sex chromosomes with a saliva test.

Okay well I'm sorry but as a cis woman myself I will be using that term. Yes however that isn't what they are talking about here, they want to do a physical examination on a child.

This is a quote from the findings of a study comparing the fitness levels of prepubescent (biological) boys and girls. So just to be clear the difference even before puberty and the relating influences of hormonal growth. Through the ANCOVA, estimated for eachdependent variable when statistically significant differenceswere observed between boys and girls, it was observed thatthe boys were superior to the girls on tests of aerobic capabil-ity, speed, agility, explosive strength, and maximum isometricstrength. The girls were superior in flexibility of the lower backand hamstrings and balance (Table 2).

@FortVictoria

I realise this will probably be an unpopular opinion, but there are a number of girls from poor backgrounds in America who have trained in their chosen sport for years hoping to get a sports scholarship to university/college. This means training all year, spending numerous weekends at races or sports competitions, and then right at the end of their school career they are comprehensibly beaten in their chosen sport owing to trans competitors with much higher testosterone levels, meaning that they are faster and stronger. We have to protect trans children, I agree, but we also have to protect the rights and opportunities of young women too. This ruling, whilst unpalatable for some, has been brought in for good reason.

Exactly

The link to the study I mentioned.

www.researchgate.net/publication/224914505_Physical_Fitness_Differences_Between_Prepubescent_Boys_and_Girls

Actually I strongly disagree. Many sports are mixed sex and women still trive and win.

So why split them at all? You’ve said as long as someone has a history of being transgender, then that’s fine for competing. Why bother with this requirement?
And, out of interest, how long a history would you require?

Examples, please, of competitive sports where women play or compete on equal terms with men and win half the time.

Firstly, not all trans women are stronger than cis females. Especially if they are on puberty blockers they wouldn't be. So that is a myth.

In their extensive and careful evaluation of all of the research evidence in relation to trans inclusion, World Rugby demonstrated that this was untrue. The evidence was unequivocal: transwomen - even those who have been taking hormones for some time - retain the advantages of their male puberty. Anyone who is interested in reading further can read WR’s report online, Ross Tucker’s Twitter feed or listen to his Science of Sport podcast on this topic. The claim advanced above has been exhaustively and definitively debunked by expert sports scientists. They also quantified the nature and extent of transwomen’s competitive advantage and the increased injury risk (in rugby) to women. It’s worth a read.

@ChristinaYang10

Actually I strongly disagree. Many sports are mixed sex and women still trive and win.

So why split them at all? You’ve said as long as someone has a history of being transgender, then that’s fine for competing. Why bother with this requirement?
And, out of interest, how long a history would you require?

I don't know about all sports so I am unsure of this. But as a woman who has constantly played sports against male competitors and have won against them I don't see the need for every sport to be sexual segregated. Sports is already bias on physical ability anyway. Like how only tall people end up doing professional basketball (because obviously it gives them an advantage). Is their biological advantage unfair?

I was discussing trans women in sports with my mum recently. She didn't understand why I thought it was an issue. Until I posed a hypothetical situation using people we know.
I'm female. I was born female. I suppose you would call me "cis" although I don't identify as such. I am 5ft 1, and until I was hit by some health issues making exercise very difficult I was a size 12. So, for the sake of the scenario let's assume I am still that kind of size.
My childhood best friend is male. He was born male. I assume he identifies as male, but haven't seen him for a few years. He is 6ft 5 and last time I saw him he was approximately twice my width. I'll call him John.

Now let's assume, for the sake of the scenario, that John and I both play competitive rugby. I play for my local women's team. He plays for his local men's team. Only, John is actually transgender. He comes out, and now identifies as Janet. As a "woman" he leaves his men's team and joins the local women's team. He plays against me in a game...
Surely you can see the problem here?

When I put it like that my mum suddenly got it. Her exact words were "he'd kill you if he tackled you."

Are genital exams wrong? Of course.

Do trans women belong in women's sports? No.

OP, If a consensual genital exam on a child to determine which sports team they play on is child abuse, how do you feel about and how would you describe prescribing puberty blockers to a child?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Examples, please, of competitive sports where women play or compete on equal terms with men and win half the time.

Dance. Cheerleading. Snooker. Croquet. And more.