Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

When others do I shall too

You don't make an ounce of sense @ASugarr

These are your rules that you are making up. Not ours. No one here wants to censor any discussions. It's you who wishes to do that. So lead by example. Live out your strongly held convictions and keep quiet about transgender issues since you aren't transgender, instead of talking yourself into linguistic holes. Why not be the ultimate ally? Why not sit down, shut up and listen to your transgender friends. Let them do the talking and humbly refrain from discussing it yourself.

No one here thinks it's the case that transgender issues shouldn't be discussed unless you are transgender so we're not bound by that rule. That's a rule you're making up yourself.

No one here thinks it's the case that transgender issues shouldn't be discussed unless you are transgender so we're not bound by that rule. That's a rule you're making up yourself.

Especially not when there is a clash with women's rights or interests.

@transbadger

When others do I shall too

You don't make an ounce of sense @ASugarr

These are your rules that you are making up. Not ours. No one here wants to censor any discussions. It's you who wishes to do that. So lead by example. Live out your strongly held convictions and keep quiet about transgender issues since you aren't transgender, instead of talking yourself into linguistic holes. Why not be the ultimate ally? Why not sit down, shut up and listen to your transgender friends. Let them do the talking and humbly refrain from discussing it yourself.

No one here thinks it's the case that transgender issues shouldn't be discussed unless you are transgender so we're not bound by that rule. That's a rule you're making up yourself.

Its just ironic you can all be upset if you are called cisgender yet you all are happy to sit here and judge who transgender people are.

Getting back to the topic of the thread, why should women, including pregnant women, be a demographic of people who don't get to choose how they're referred to by public bodies?

@PotholeHellhole

Getting back to the topic of the thread, why should women, including pregnant women, be a demographic of people who don't get to choose how they're referred to by public bodies?

Because being called pregnant people doesn't change anything. At all. We are still people right? Pregnant humans better?

Okay cool. That's fine. But I am and want to be able to use it

You can use it, about yourself. As your own personal in-group identity label that you have adopted. As long as you don't word it in such a way that you label others here with it when they explicitly reject that label and don't subscribe to the beliefs underpinning it. That's just polite.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Okay cool. That's fine. But I am and want to be able to use it

You can use it, about yourself. As your own personal in-group identity label that you have adopted. As long as you don't word it in such a way that you label others here with it when they explicitly reject that label and don't subscribe to the beliefs underpinning it. That's just polite.

Okay so no one should be allowed to say trans women are not women and trans men are not men as those who are trans don't agree and it isn't how they identify so.

It's strange to see you get so upset about it. She wrote her name completely wrong when writing my birth certificate because she was hungover when doing it. Never changed it to her correct name. So legally it isn't correct even on my original birth certificate (although that was burnt many years ago). That's all. But I've seen lawers about having her name removed but since she wrote her name wrong it doesn't matter anyway.

And what did the solicitors say? No I suspect. You can't just remove the name off the birth certificate. And it doesn't suddenly mean she's not your birth mother just because her name is mispelt. Also burning the certificate doesn't just get rid of it. The record is still in existence.

You happy you know now

Not particularly interested either way. More intrigued at the way you apply your logic to the real world.

@ANewCreation

I am going to have one last go to see if I can help you understand that you have made a fundamental category error, asugarr and that you will possibly always find yourself speaking at cross purposes with the women here because of it.

I see how you firmly believe and articulate that the word 'woman' and 'man' are "gender only" terms.

So, for you, a 'woman' can be male or female, have a penis or not, get pregnant or ejaculate sperm, have cervical or prostate cancer. Ditto a 'man'. That it is a question of identity and individual choice whether someone decides to be a man or a woman.

In law, medicine, literature, religion, biology, throughout history from the dawn of time however they are "sex" terms.

This leaves you lacking a collective word to describe the category of adult human females, 3.5 billion people on the planet.

Earlier in the thread we were talking about ewes, sows, mares, hens etc and how we use words (nouns) like these as sex based terms to describe the female of the species.
Ewe=female sheep
Doe=female deer
Mare=female horse
Woman=female human
Hen=female chicken etc

You said:
"Yeah those are gender terms we created for animals. Their sex is male and female. Their gender is then the terms we (for some reason) came up for them."

I have asked you a couple of times if you seriously believe that animals have a Gender but you have not answered.

Either a) you do believe that animals have a gender
Or b) words like ewe, doe, mare, woman, sow are all just sex specific terms.

I would suggest option b...

Sheep conforming(or not) to a gender stereotype of a female sheep or male sheep. I mean - how?

Because being called pregnant people doesn't change anything. At all

It's disrespectful. It's dehumanising. You fall over yourself to respect what trans people want, but you can't accept what women feel?

I don't think anyone here is judging you trans people are. We're defending women's rights. Trans people can live however they want but they can't trample on other people's rights or co-opt language to the point of losing all meaning.

@Erkrie

It's strange to see you get so upset about it. She wrote her name completely wrong when writing my birth certificate because she was hungover when doing it. Never changed it to her correct name. So legally it isn't correct even on my original birth certificate (although that was burnt many years ago). That's all. But I've seen lawers about having her name removed but since she wrote her name wrong it doesn't matter anyway.

And what did the solicitors say? No I suspect. You can't just remove the name off the birth certificate. And it doesn't suddenly mean she's not your birth mother just because her name is mispelt. Also burning the certificate doesn't just get rid of it. The record is still in existence.

You happy you know now

Not particularly interested either way. More intrigued at the way you apply your logic to the real world.

I know. I had to pay for my records as an adult. Still the name is wrong so legally there's no need to remove her.

Because being called pregnant people doesn't change anything. At all. We are still people right? Pregnant humans better?

Pregnant woman works for me. Although if as you say, the words don't mean anything, (to you) then why do you want it changed so much?

Okay cool. That's fine. But I am and want to be able to use it without my comments being taken down by MumsNet then. And if you find it offensive then I don't think anyone should say trans women are not women or trans men are not men as that is offensive to them and isn't tolerated

Not tolerated? By whom? Who are you to speak on behalf of all trans people? Do you have their agreement? Who elected you into this vaunted position to decree what can and cannot be said?

Your comments won't be taken down by Mumsnet if you don't use the term cisgender to or about people who object, it's really quite simple and straightforward, not rocket science.

Okay so no one should be allowed to say trans women are not women and trans men are not men as those who are trans don't agree and it isn't how they identify so.

Woman is not simply an identity label, it has a meaning in science and law.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Okay so no one should be allowed to say trans women are not women and trans men are not men as those who are trans don't agree and it isn't how they identify so.

Woman is not simply an identity label, it has a meaning in science and law.

Neither is being cisgender but still.

Whenever a thread about gender neutral language in maternity services or breastfeeding support is started it seems to fill up pretty quickly. So it seems that many women have got strong feelings about this topic. On mumsnet women should definitely be allowed to discuss how use of gender neutral language in relation to our health care impacts us. Many of us feel that it, along with separating the word woman from our shared biology and the generally understood meaning of adult human female will have far reaching negative consequences. We absolutely should be able to discuss these things here.

Although if as you say, the words don't mean anything, (to you) then why do you want it changed so much?

Quite.

This thread is batshit. Incoherent, circular, derailed to the nth degree.

Still, it’s nearly over now.

It can be summarised as “all identities are important and must be respected, unless they’re, like, gross and old style, in which case, all discussion should be censored and/or banned as applicable and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for presuming that your needs matter”.

Because being called pregnant people doesn't change anything. At all. We are still people right? Pregnant humans better?

You seem to be making sweeping statements on other people's behalf again.

I am a member of various demographics. In all of them, except one, it is accepted that NHS staff should be consulting me about language, not imposing them upon me.

The exception seems to be anything related to being female. In that area, it seems to be assumed I will put up with NHS staff (like yourself?) riding roughshod over me.

The answer is no.

Neither is being cisgender but still.

Your opinion. Most women don't want this label.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Neither is being cisgender but still.

Your opinion. Most women don't want this label.

No fact.

Its just ironic you can all be upset if you are called cisgender yet you all are happy to sit here and judge who transgender people are.

No, judgement is passed on what they do and what they want.

It can be summarised as “all identities are important and must be respected, unless they’re, like, gross and old style, in which case, all discussion should be censored and/or banned as applicable and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for presuming that your needs matter”.

Spot on