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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Pregnant people?

999 replies

Trustisamust · 11/04/2021 03:12

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

OP posts:
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12
Whatwouldscullydo · 12/04/2021 15:22

And no ones stopping you from saying ir feeling that.

But words don't change their meanings just because a person doesn't like what they mean.

ASugarr · 12/04/2021 15:23

@transbadger

It's not about what's "biologically right" as you put it. You can disown a parent. They are still either your mother or father regardless. This is a linguistic and legal definition.

You don't ever have to refer to her as such, although you already have on this thread, but that is what she is.

Actually my mother isn't legally my mother for a few odd reasons. One of which wasn't my own doing. She isn't a mother to me any more. The biology that attaches us together does nothing. At all. No matter what. And the reason I mention this isn't for people to feel sympathy or anything, but to try and maybe understand more what the transgender experience is like. That biology simply doesn't matter when it comes to who we are and our lives.
WarmDuscher · 12/04/2021 15:23

Understood. But all I'm trying to display is that sometimes biological reality isn't what is important to all. Regardless of the fact she gave birth to me, she isn't a mother and never will be allowed to be. I don't wish to go into why but I will say that it literally makes me and my family safer that way. Like I'm disabled because of it. So understand that not everyone cares about others views on what's "biologically" right when in their life it isn't important.

With respect, ASugarr, you might want to ask yourself if it’s wise to keep dropping personal details about your personal life into this thread to bolster your argument. No-one has asked to explain anything about your relationship with your mother, they are just stating the fact that legally she will always be your mother.

ASugarr · 12/04/2021 15:24

@WarmDuscher

Understood. But all I'm trying to display is that sometimes biological reality isn't what is important to all. Regardless of the fact she gave birth to me, she isn't a mother and never will be allowed to be. I don't wish to go into why but I will say that it literally makes me and my family safer that way. Like I'm disabled because of it. So understand that not everyone cares about others views on what's "biologically" right when in their life it isn't important.

With respect, ASugarr, you might want to ask yourself if it’s wise to keep dropping personal details about your personal life into this thread to bolster your argument. No-one has asked to explain anything about your relationship with your mother, they are just stating the fact that legally she will always be your mother.

That's fine. I won't be giving any personal information. I just find this as a sort of way to help give some imagery as to how being transgender works. As in how we can acknowledge the biology, however not have it define us.
Jaxhog · 12/04/2021 15:24

Soon it'll be 'men, people who think they're men and people who think they're women)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/04/2021 15:25

Yeah sure I'm biologically still my mothers daughter.

Yes. That's the point. As I said, the term mother is a neutral word for the female human who gave birth to a person. As well as having other related meanings. Every person who has given birth is a mother, biologically and legally.

ASugarr · 12/04/2021 15:25

@Whatwouldscullydo

Biological reality doesn't change though just because you remove the words to accurately describe it
Biologically it doesn't. But in my life and my reality it does. And it does for many others.
BaseDrops · 12/04/2021 15:26

Society doesn’t function based on individual thinking and opinions. Law doesn’t function on individual thought about what words mean.

No one has to care about other people’s opinions. But we all have to exist as a society which means balancing rights and having legislation to back it up.

ASugarr · 12/04/2021 15:26

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yeah sure I'm biologically still my mothers daughter.

Yes. That's the point. As I said, the term mother is a neutral word for the female human who gave birth to a person. As well as having other related meanings. Every person who has given birth is a mother, biologically and legally.

Cool but that doesn't make me her daughter or her my actual mother anymore.
Scepticaltank · 12/04/2021 15:27

@ASugarr

It's not that I disagree with the narrative. But surely if cisgender can't be used then transgender shouldn't be used. Especially by those who aren't trans.
Can transsexual be used? The rule book you use disallows that word even for actual transsexuals.

The problem you are experiencing is that there is no consensus need for language changes, so they won't stick. Change only works if it meets a need, if its irrelevant it will stay irrelevant. You have no perspective how irrelevant what you say is ASugarr.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/04/2021 15:27

I think you are illustrating some of the problems with gender identity ideology very well, ASugar.

Whatwouldscullydo · 12/04/2021 15:29

Well if biology doesn't change them we need words that reflect biology then don't we. I.mean I.can say ny dd is 5 ft 6 but if someone let's her on a rollacoaster on the back on my say so that she's not 4 ft 8 then that's where we run into dangerous territory isn't it.

Best stick to definable facts as far as medical treatment goes and any incidence where reality is necessary to consider.

WarmDuscher · 12/04/2021 15:29

Biologically it doesn't. But in my life and my reality it does. And it does for many others.

True, But your reality, and your life, is yours alone, as it is for transgender people. It does not follow that that reality must be accepted by everyone else.

WarmDuscher · 12/04/2021 15:31

Cool but that doesn't make me her daughter or her my actual mother anymore.

In law it does.

AssassinatedBeauty · 12/04/2021 15:32

@ASugarr the issue with "your reality" is that is is not a shared reality. To communicate with others meaningfully we need to use terms that everyone understands the meaning of. You yourself implicitly understand this, as you originally referred to your birth mother as "mother" precisely so we all understood what you meant. Then of course you can go on to explain that in your case she lost parental responsibility and you don't refer to her as your mother. When talking to you personally about that particular person I would then use your descriptors for her. However that in no way should change how I use the word "mother" in other contexts and especially when looking at mothers as a class.

DadJoke · 12/04/2021 15:33

@Trustisamust

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc. They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women. I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?
Would you be able to link us to the guidance without giving too much away?
transbadger · 12/04/2021 15:34

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@ASugarr the issue with "your reality" is that is is not a shared reality. To communicate with others meaningfully we need to use terms that everyone understands the meaning of. You yourself implicitly understand this, as you originally referred to your birth mother as "mother" precisely so we all understood what you meant. Then of course you can go on to explain that in your case she lost parental responsibility and you don't refer to her as your mother. When talking to you personally about that particular person I would then use your descriptors for her. However that in no way should change how I use the word "mother" in other contexts and especially when looking at mothers as a class. [/quote]

Wonderfully put.

ASugarr · 12/04/2021 15:36

@WarmDuscher

Biologically it doesn't. But in my life and my reality it does. And it does for many others.

True, But your reality, and your life, is yours alone, as it is for transgender people. It does not follow that that reality must be accepted by everyone else.

Exactly. And it's the same for others. And there's no need for anyone to get involved! See! That's the whole point I've been trying to make. It doesn't matter if you disagree because we all have lifestyle choices that we won't all agree on.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/04/2021 15:40

It doesn't matter if you disagree because we all have lifestyle choices that we won't all agree on.

But the definition in reality and law of both "mother" and "woman" remains the same whatever anyone thinks.

ASugarr · 12/04/2021 15:43

That's fine. That's exactly what I want people to realize. We are allowed to use terms in different ways. Just like how I fully stand behind the fact trans women are women because to be being a woman doesn't mean you've got to be born female. Same with mother. I don't think everyone who gives birth is a mother. And when it comes to language we have to accept that others use those terms differently and leave them be.

transbadger · 12/04/2021 15:43

I'm starting to think the Tumblr generation and the Twittersphere are contributing to a section of society who think change is happening at an incredible rate because that's how it appears to be online.

In reality the change isn't as fast as they wish, or isn't changing at all. But they are so used to socialising online in little echo chambers that they think society already reflects their niche opinions.

Most people would be rightly baffled by some of the opinions you assert @ASugarr. Most people also have real worries and stresses to deal with without playing word games or pondering whether or not men can be women.

🦡🌈🤍

Erkrie · 12/04/2021 15:43

Actually she legally isn't anymore. Which is great. All parental connection is gone. And don't worry, we won't. I won't ever see her again which is amazing.

Well, obviously I don't know your personal circumstances. However she is still your birth mother. You can play around with words as much as you want. It doesn't change these things though.

BaseDrops · 12/04/2021 15:44

Other people are involved as soon as they are expected to adjust around someone else’s reality.

Identify as a woman. Fine.
Identify as a man. Fine.

Expect to move through the world treated as a woman when you are male - we have laws about that. We have laws about that because it impacts other people.

Have a belief system - fine.

Have your belief system respected - enshrined in law already. Expect everyone else to act in accordance with your belief system - not fine. Enshrined in law as not fine.

transbadger · 12/04/2021 15:44

We are allowed to use terms in different ways

Then why are you calling for mumsnet to ban any discussion of trans issues on your Twitter page?