Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

I am going to have one last go to see if I can help you understand that you have made a fundamental category error, asugarr and that you will possibly always find yourself speaking at cross purposes with the women here because of it.

I see how you firmly believe and articulate that the word 'woman' and 'man' are "gender only" terms.

So, for you, a 'woman' can be male or female, have a penis or not, get pregnant or ejaculate sperm, have cervical or prostate cancer. Ditto a 'man'. That it is a question of identity and individual choice whether someone decides to be a man or a woman.

In law, medicine, literature, religion, biology, throughout history from the dawn of time however they are "sex" terms.

This leaves you lacking a collective word to describe the category of adult human females, 3.5 billion people on the planet.

Earlier in the thread we were talking about ewes, sows, mares, hens etc and how we use words (nouns) like these as sex based terms to describe the female of the species.
Ewe=female sheep
Doe=female deer
Mare=female horse
Woman=female human
Hen=female chicken etc

You said:
"Yeah those are gender terms we created for animals. Their sex is male and female. Their gender is then the terms we (for some reason) came up for them."

I have asked you a couple of times if you seriously believe that animals have a Gender but you have not answered.

Either a) you do believe that animals have a gender
Or b) words like ewe, doe, mare, woman, sow are all just sex specific terms.

I would suggest option b...

@ANewCreation

Nice post. The patience of posters on these threads astounds me. It's a shame we won't get anywhere with specific individuals but it's still worth the effort for the thousands of lurkers who read these posts.

I know many on this forum started out as lurkers who learnt a lot from these discussions and now feel more equipped to speak up when they see their sex-based rights being jeopardised.

Your post is valuable for all the Mumsnet members who don't join in. I started out the same way, reading Mumsnet for years before starting an account.

It's just funny that I tell you legally she isn't and yet you still fail to understand. She isn't on my birth certificate or is legally recognized as my mother anymore. She quite literally isn't legally my mother. If I died tomorrow she wouldn't be notified or anything. Not even permitted at my funeral. Like she quite literally isn't legally my mother anymore.

@Erkrie

Because if you can't use the term cisgender then we shouldn't be allowed to use the term transgender.

You can use the term cisgender. You can't apply the term to people who don't identify as that.

Simple isn't it.

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender.

@ANewCreation

I am going to have one last go to see if I can help you understand that you have made a fundamental category error, asugarr and that you will possibly always find yourself speaking at cross purposes with the women here because of it.

I see how you firmly believe and articulate that the word 'woman' and 'man' are "gender only" terms.

So, for you, a 'woman' can be male or female, have a penis or not, get pregnant or ejaculate sperm, have cervical or prostate cancer. Ditto a 'man'. That it is a question of identity and individual choice whether someone decides to be a man or a woman.

In law, medicine, literature, religion, biology, throughout history from the dawn of time however they are "sex" terms.

This leaves you lacking a collective word to describe the category of adult human females, 3.5 billion people on the planet.

Earlier in the thread we were talking about ewes, sows, mares, hens etc and how we use words (nouns) like these as sex based terms to describe the female of the species.
Ewe=female sheep
Doe=female deer
Mare=female horse
Woman=female human
Hen=female chicken etc

You said:
"Yeah those are gender terms we created for animals. Their sex is male and female. Their gender is then the terms we (for some reason) came up for them."

I have asked you a couple of times if you seriously believe that animals have a Gender but you have not answered.

Either a) you do believe that animals have a gender
Or b) words like ewe, doe, mare, woman, sow are all just sex specific terms.

I would suggest option b...

I'm unsure exactly what you mean. But when it comes to animals the way I see it is that their sex is male or female. And then any terms we've come up for them are gender terms.

So you believe animals have a gender identity?

@Whatwouldscullydo

So you believe animals have a gender identity?

I don't know. Ask someone who works with animals what they think.

So it isn’t that we humans needed species specific words for animals of male and female sex? We were just being really weird and imposing human notions of gender identity on them? We humans did this odd thing inexplicably across time, place and culture? Stag is not a deer of the male sex it is just a gender identity which either a male or female deer could have, a stallion doesn’t necessarily have a penis? Or rather animals don’t have gender identity and we should stop using these terms, mare, stallion, doe, stag and refer to female horse and male deer etc so as not to anthropomorphise them or is it actually transphobic to use these words?

Ok I am totally

I guess that is the point though right? No definitions just individuals and their individual feelings and interpretations. Make communication impossible. Make debate impossible. Make legal protections impossible.

Mother is a noun, as is woman. Your family tree will show that she is your mother, whether you have a relationship with her or not, because she gave birth to you. Words have meanings. Similarly a woman is an adult human female, it's not also a male. Because if woman can mean anything - anyone who says or feels they are one - it ultimately means nothing.

If you are redefining what a female sheep is called and applying gender logic to ir then I think that's for you to explain.

Male Sea horses aren't reclassified as females when they hatch out the babies.

@Asuggar
"But surely if cisgender can't be used then transgender shouldn't be used. Especially by those who aren't trans"

Do you mean that if someone is saying "Woman" instead of "Cis Woman", then they must also say "Woman" instead of "Trans woman"?
Wouldn't that be very confusing in a sentence referring to both sorts of humans?

That would mean using a single word to mean two different things as far as I can see.
Equally using "Woman" to mean a female human and "Woman" to mean a male human who is identifying as a female but isn't one biologically would not make sense.

Women - born female human beings - should not be under an obligation to adapt or shift their own identity by means of the pre-fix 'cis' in relation to 'trans' in order to help a trans woman feel they are the same - even if they do need to treat them with care and respect as fellow humans (where it doesn't mean harm to biological female humans/women as a protected group as in prison/sports/private spaces/medical treatment).

Mixing Identity and sex terms in language, and treating both terms as interchangeable is problematic.

"Cis" and "trans" only relate to an idea of identity from a trans person's point of view. These terms are not related to the main sense of identity of a person who was born a certain biological sex: I, as a woman, have no particular consciousness of myself as being 'non trans'. It just wouldn't occur to me.

Being a women is not a chosen identity as such as such but a biological fact of birth (except for very few intersex people born). There are myriad sorts of women and girls and all sorts of possibilities for how they will express themselves and live out their lives - call this aspect their identities if you will - but all the while they would essentially be women.

The same is true about men and boys ......

It usually seems to be women who are called 'cis' though.

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender

But you don't apply this to yourself?

I'm certainly a bit concerned that you're a health care professional and seem so unaware of the law as it applies to the care of women, and women's health.

@MeltsAway

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender

But you don't apply this to yourself?

I'm certainly a bit concerned that you're a health care professional and seem so unaware of the law as it applies to the care of women, and women's health.

Oh yeah I think this applies to me also! I don't think if cisgender can be used that transgender should be used.

Being a women is not a chosen identity as such as such but a biological fact of birth (except for very few intersex people born). There are myriad sorts of women and girls and all sorts of possibilities for how they will express themselves and live out their lives - call this aspect their identities if you will - but all the while they would essentially be women.

Brava! So straightforward and clear.

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@Asuggar
"But surely if cisgender can't be used then transgender shouldn't be used. Especially by those who aren't trans"

Do you mean that if someone is saying "Woman" instead of "Cis Woman", then they must also say "Woman" instead of "Trans woman"?
Wouldn't that be very confusing in a sentence referring to both sorts of humans?

That would mean using a single word to mean two different things as far as I can see.
Equally using "Woman" to mean a female human and "Woman" to mean a male human who is identifying as a female but isn't one biologically would not make sense.

Women - born female human beings - should not be under an obligation to adapt or shift their own identity by means of the pre-fix 'cis' in relation to 'trans' in order to help a trans woman feel they are the same - even if they do need to treat them with care and respect as fellow humans (where it doesn't mean harm to biological female humans/women as a protected group as in prison/sports/private spaces/medical treatment).

Mixing Identity and sex terms in language, and treating both terms as interchangeable is problematic.

"Cis" and "trans" only relate to an idea of identity from a trans person's point of view. These terms are not related to the main sense of identity of a person who was born a certain biological sex: I, as a woman, have no particular consciousness of myself as being 'non trans'. It just wouldn't occur to me.

Being a women is not a chosen identity as such as such but a biological fact of birth (except for very few intersex people born). There are myriad sorts of women and girls and all sorts of possibilities for how they will express themselves and live out their lives - call this aspect their identities if you will - but all the while they would essentially be women.

The same is true about men and boys ......

It usually seems to be women who are called 'cis' though.[/quote]
Again. That's cool, I respect your opinion but I disagree.

Sounds like you want to remove the ability to discuss the issues then.

So because you don't think the language we have to describe a situation should be used then we cant talk about it. Logical.conclusion of trying to alter legal akd biological definitions I suppose.

Who does that benefit?

Its solved precisely zero issues. We jut can't point them out

It's just funny that I tell you legally she isn't and yet you still fail to understand. She isn't on my birth certificate or is legally recognized as my mother anymore. She quite literally isn't legally my mother. If I died tomorrow she wouldn't be notified or anything. Not even permitted at my funeral. Like she quite literally isn't legally my mother anymore.

On your original birth certificate, she will be listed as your birth mother.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Sounds like you want to remove the ability to discuss the issues then.

So because you don't think the language we have to describe a situation should be used then we cant talk about it. Logical.conclusion of trying to alter legal akd biological definitions I suppose.

Who does that benefit?

Its solved precisely zero issues. We jut can't point them out

Discussing actual feminist issues is fine. But discussing things like this really aren't necessary. And some of the others I've seen just turn into spaces where people can be transphobic.

@Erkrie

It's just funny that I tell you legally she isn't and yet you still fail to understand. She isn't on my birth certificate or is legally recognized as my mother anymore. She quite literally isn't legally my mother. If I died tomorrow she wouldn't be notified or anything. Not even permitted at my funeral. Like she quite literally isn't legally my mother anymore.

On your original birth certificate, she will be listed as your birth mother.

Original sort of. It's complicated.

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender.

Why? Because you say so? The world doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Your 'debate' is starting to sound a little bit petulant and extremely illogical.

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender.

Cisgender is a meaningless made up term, it is unnecessary, has no factual criteria nor definition. Those who wish to apply it to themselves are free to do so, they are not free to apply it to anyone else.

The only posters here who discuss being transgender are those who actually are, you might be shocked to find that they on the whole disagree with you.

The rest of us are discussing the detrimental and far reaching impact on women's rights.

To discuss feminist issues we need to know what a woman is. Ita kinda central really.

Original sort of. It's complicated.

Complicated to you possibly. But your mother's name will be on there. Without a doubt. Unless of course you were abandoned at birth and found somewhere, and thus your mother wasn't actually identifed. But I don't think that will be true, because you know who she is...

@Erkrie

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender.

Why? Because you say so? The world doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Your 'debate' is starting to sound a little bit petulant and extremely illogical.

Because if you can't use the term cisgender people shouldn't be allowed to use the term transgender

Okay then people on here shouldn't be discussing or talking about being transgender unless they are transgender.

You are not transgender. Why don't you lead by example and stop commenting on a community you are not a part of.