Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

Exactly. And it's the same for others. And there's no need for anyone to get involved! See! That's the whole point I've been trying to make. It doesn't matter if you disagree because we all have lifestyle choices that we won't all agree on.

So why do the “lifestyle choices” of trans people get to impact on the language used around women’s reproductive health if it’s just their reality and not rooted in biological facts?

@transbadger

We are allowed to use terms in different ways

Then why are you calling for mumsnet to ban any discussion of trans issues on your Twitter page?

Because if you can't use the term cisgender then we shouldn't be allowed to use the term transgender.

@ASugarr

That's fine. That's exactly what I want people to realize. We are allowed to use terms in different ways. Just like how I fully stand behind the fact trans women are women because to be being a woman doesn't mean you've got to be born female. Same with mother. I don't think everyone who gives birth is a mother. And when it comes to language we have to accept that others use those terms differently and leave them be.

Except it’s not happening like that. One group is attempting to override another group who use the terms differently and they are most definitely not accepting the difference and leaving women to be.

@WarmDuscher

Exactly. And it's the same for others. And there's no need for anyone to get involved! See! That's the whole point I've been trying to make. It doesn't matter if you disagree because we all have lifestyle choices that we won't all agree on.

So why do the “lifestyle choices” of trans people get to impact on the language used around women’s reproductive health if it’s just their reality and not rooted in biological facts?

Because it includes them and at the end of the day it's the NHS choice to do so.

A lot of men say 'we're pregnant' these days!

Ha! Anatomical impossibility: they should come back and say that the next time they piss themselves when they sneeze

What I've learnt from this thread

The NHS (and other orgs?) have a strategy that has not been visible to public etc

The strategy is around changing the usage in the UK more widely of the meaning of words woman girl man boy, to mean gender. And to normalise language such as people who have penises etc as it's not only more inclusive but also how language should always have been used.

Because they are aware that men will not accept this easily there's a thought out approach that certain/ all (?) NHS things involved with Comms, guidance ,(anything else?) to change the language for things relating to female people first, as we won't make such a fuss.

A second arm of this strategy is to educate children and young people in the new language so that as people get older, the 'correct' approach is the one more people have been told us correct and accept as, well, it's what they've been taught.

Once that is far enough the correction of the language for men will commence widely.

Additionally. The NHS have a secret questionaire that relates to gender identity but it's not to be shared with the general public. For reasons that aren't given. But taken in conjunction with the language strategy, is not surprising.

Well if that isn't all extremely sinister I don't know what is.

@ASugarr you of course can use terms to mean whatever you want, within your social grouping and personal experience of reality. What people are pointing out is that you cannot then impose those meanings on other people or suggest that your meaning is the only meaning or the only correct meaning. In order to have a meaningful discussion with people outside your personal reality, terms need to be used in a consistent way and in a way that everyone understands. It is especially egregious if you take words that describe groups of people with protected characteristics and redefine those.

No one is saying you can’t use the word cisgender. What you can’t do is use it to misgender people.

@Erkrie

Actually she legally isn't anymore. Which is great. All parental connection is gone. And don't worry, we won't. I won't ever see her again which is amazing.

Well, obviously I don't know your personal circumstances. However she is still your birth mother. You can play around with words as much as you want. It doesn't change these things though.

But she isn't. She doesn't deserve the title of mother. Because actually the word mother isn't exclusive to just women who give birth. It's to bring up (a child) with care and affection. Which she doesn't.

@BaseDrops

No one is saying you can’t use the word cisgender. What you can’t do is use it to misgender people.

MumsNet does. I've used it to refer to myself and have had posts taken down for it.

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@ASugarr you of course can use terms to mean whatever you want, within your social grouping and personal experience of reality. What people are pointing out is that you cannot then impose those meanings on other people or suggest that your meaning is the only meaning or the only correct meaning. In order to have a meaningful discussion with people outside your personal reality, terms need to be used in a consistent way and in a way that everyone understands. It is especially egregious if you take words that describe groups of people with protected characteristics and redefine those. [/quote]
Okay so why did this discussion begin then? If the NHS stated in their guidelines to call parents patients and pregnant people instead of women that's their choice.

Would love @ASugarr to weigh in on this subject and explain how this isn't a prime (and disgusting) example of how the current push for a culture of self-ID is eroding women's rights.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4217557-Can-anyone-help-me-please-I-want-to-make-a-probably-completely-pointless-complaint-to-a-newspaper-Content-warning-concerns-child-sex-abuse

But she isn't. She doesn't deserve the title of mother. Because actually the word mother isn't exclusive to just women who give birth. It's to bring up (a child) with care and affection. Which she doesn't

For Christ sake @ASugarr. Motherhood isn't earned by those most deserving. She is legally your mother however much you wish she weren't. Many people have mothers and fathers whom they cut out of their lives. She is still your mother by law and by commonly agreed language.

Honestly I despair. Words and understanding of the meaning of words matters. Sometimes it really isn’t that important, like saying I did the hoovering when you actually mean you vacuumed. But if you phone to get a part and describe it as a Hoover when it is another brand - it matters.

@transbadger

But she isn't. She doesn't deserve the title of mother. Because actually the word mother isn't exclusive to just women who give birth. It's to bring up (a child) with care and affection. Which she doesn't

For Christ sake @ASugarr. Motherhood isn't earned by those most deserving. She is legally your mother however much you wish she weren't. Many people have mothers and fathers whom they cut out of their lives. She is still your mother by law and by commonly agreed language.

Actually by law she isn't ironically. Only biologically which doesn't mean anything to me. Doesn't mean she is my mother what so ever.

The NHS isn't a monolith, it isn't an individual with a personal social circle. It is a public health organisation used by or accessible to everyone in the UK. The NHS should not be deciding that one social groupings particular definitions of words are now to be used for everyone. Especially if those words relate to people with legally protected characteristics, such as women on the basis of their sex.

@BaseDrops

Honestly I despair. Words and understanding of the meaning of words matters. Sometimes it really isn’t that important, like saying I did the hoovering when you actually mean you vacuumed. But if you phone to get a part and describe it as a Hoover when it is another brand - it matters.

Some people don't understand what they are giving up by merrily mangling language like this. Language is essential to existence.

One reading of 1984 should be enough to understand this.

Women expect clarity and the word women defines who we are, even those who don't agree with us are still women if they were observed as female at, or prior to birth.

Any action to reduce and obliterate our words that define us will be met with a great deal of resistance. Transwomen are Transwomen

Okay so why did this discussion begin then? If the NHS stated in their guidelines to call parents patients and pregnant people instead of women that's their choice.

The NHS is for all of us and paid for by all of us, it is not just their choice it is is the choice of users and taxpayers who fund it, bowing down to a loud, aggressive minority to the detriment of the majority is not something they should do nor is it in their remit to do so.

Because if you can't use the term cisgender then we shouldn't be allowed to use the term transgender.

You can use the term cisgender. You can't apply the term to people who don't identify as that.

Simple isn't it.

Actually by law she isn't ironically. Only biologically which doesn't mean anything to me. Doesn't mean she is my mother what so ever.

Again, your reality. Not the law.

Anyway, leaving aside your spectacular derail, I’m wondering if you have an opinion on the thread about the news article posted by transbadger above?

Just because biology doesn't mean anything to you doesn't mean that you get to force everyone else to disassociate biology from them and reality.

Regardless anyones feelings towards their family, blood relatives would still be the first port of call if someone needed a bone marrow or kidney transplant.

As defined by law "mother" means:

"the status afforded to a person who undergoes the physical and biological process of carrying a pregnancy and giving birth."

You need to separate your personal grievances from facts and try to navigate the world rationally.

@WarmDuscher

Actually by law she isn't ironically. Only biologically which doesn't mean anything to me. Doesn't mean she is my mother what so ever.

Again, your reality. Not the law.

Anyway, leaving aside your spectacular derail, I’m wondering if you have an opinion on the thread about the news article posted by transbadger above?

I wait with baited breath

🦡🌈🤍

She might no longer have parental responsibility. That’s not the same as not being your legal mother.

How is a 'mother' currently defined?
The judge in this case, the President of the Family Division, Sir Andrew MacFarlane, has provided the first legal definition of a mother. He ruled that being a child's "mother" or "father" is not necessarily gender specific and that a person's gender can be different to their status as a parent.

Being a mother, he ruled, is the status given to the person who undergoes the physical and biological process of being pregnant, carrying and giving birth to a child. This has historically, of course, been associated with being female. The judge decided that the definition should remain the same, despite it being medically and legally possible for someone recognised as being male to become pregnant and give birth. On this basis, Mr McConnell should be registered as his son's mother.