Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

Being "offended" by the word is a learned response, based on not-knowing, rather than it being a word of denigration.

I would argue most GC women are not offended per se by the word "Cis" We simply argue that womanhood is not described by costume or role. That womanhood relates to women's bodies and nothing else. Therefore there are not sides to be "other" of.

Women have had the word for centuries. Transwoman is a relatively recent addition to our lexicon. Welcome, if it allows people to feel more comfortable.

But the forced renaming of a sex class without agreement is not welcome or fair. It is as old as ages. Men tell women what to do. Well some women say no. How unfeminine of us all!

It’s a puzzle isn’t TheFive

The same way that on twitter it’s men who post genuinely horrific transphobic stiff and yet somehow TRA don’t go after them with threats & intimidation. It’s almost as if there’s a difference as to how the 2 sexes are treated 🤔

@Impatiens

Trans people's existing rights to use the spaces and services that align with their Equality Act 2010 section 7 protected characteristic are not 'in conflict' with women's rights.

'Trans people' don't have a Right in law to use these spaces. That's the truth.

Actually, this isn't the truth.

There is a prohibitition under s13 of the Equality Act which makes all discrimination on grounds of Gender reassignment unlawful.

The section 7 definition of "Gender reassignment" in the act is drawn widely:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

Read the wording of the definition. It creates a subjective test of intention to transition any physiological or other attributes of sex. That doesn't just include binary trans people, it protects non binary people too.

Claiming that the law doesn't protect the people that it was expressly designed to protect is an intrinsically transphobic position.

BarbaraofKent

Mimmymum must be absolutelydelightedthat Mumsnet is now trending after her Soreen post.

Absolutely delighted.

Now.

What's happening this month in the UK law courts?

So until overturned trans people do indeed have the right to use the spaces that match their acquired sex/gender

You can't acquire a new sex. HTH

Why not the (very probably) 99.9% of heterosexual men who most certainly do not think TWAW? Or they might say they do on Twitter for woke cookies, but they aren’t entering in to a sexual relationship with one any time soon.

Like this guy? Classic!

Oh, and all human beings are "valid", insofar as valid has any meaning. They are free to tell themselves any story about themselves that they like. There is no right to force everyone else to act as if they believe the story.

@RowanMumsnet

Thanks *@bigotryisbad*. I wasn't accusing you of misogyny to be clear. You may well be right about some aspects of systematic bias - it's doubtful that any organisation entirely avoids it I'd have thought and Mumsnet is used overwhelmingly by women and has a largely female staff so I'm sure we can't claim to be free of it on this issue and on many others. That's one of the reasons we genuinely like having a big and diverse crowd contributing to conversations.

Thank you for clarifying.

BigotryisBad I was also accused and would like clarification.

Cis is a scientific term, in Latin, as is trans. Cis meaning "this side of" and trans meaning "the other side of". If trans is a valid prefix as used in any context, so is cis.

That is a linguistic equivocation I find uncomfortable.

Cis is a Latin preposition governing the accusative that means "on this side of" as in a river. So, for example, cis fluvium (on this side of the river). It was not a scientific term.

It is now a loan-word used in some scientific contexts.

Some people choose to use/find that the preposition trans (also governing the accusative if anyone ruddy cares these day) resonates with how to describe their life.

Why does that mean I am "cis"? If I have to pick any of them, I am non-binary. But I would prefer just to call myself a woman.

If I am to respect other people's pronouns, I rather feel you should respect my nouns.

[quote BaronessWrongCrowd]@bigotryisbad as posted further down, I saw the deleted post. I do apologise as I hadn't seen it, however, it was about a biscuit. Jammy Dodger in fact. It was probably seen as an attempt to derail the thread. Sadly, it was nothing nefarious just a biscuit [/quote]
Again, thank you for confirming that the deleted post existed.

Ally in the tweets, Terf in the sheets -
Isn't that the phrase?

Which forums do those guys hang out on, does anyone know?

@TheFive

I still don’t understand why TRAs spend so much time arguing with women about whether we think TWAW.

Why not the (very probably) 99.9% of heterosexual men who most certainly do not think TWAW? Or they might say they do on Twitter for woke cookies, but they aren’t entering in to a sexual relationship with one any time soon.

I'll argue with anyone who doesn't think trans women are women 🤷🏻‍♀️ I wish it involved more actual cookies though. Although I am trying to lose weight so I guess that's a good thing.

@bigotryisbad No problem.

What other forums have you started trans thread like this on OP?

[quote ool0n]"'Trans people' don't have a Right in law to use these spaces. That's the truth."

You can believe the EA 2010 doesn't give trans people the right to use correctly sexed/gendered spaces. Fact is UK law works on precedent, and there is very little, but what we have is this. So until overturned trans people do indeed have the right to use the spaces that match their acquired sex/gender. And in practice every trans person I know has always used the correct spaces, for longer than I've been alive, and will continue to do so.
www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case[/quote]
That wasn't what that case was. It was not the use of the loo that was upheld but the discrimination because the landlord then barred the plaintiff!

Single sex spaces can exclude transpeople and not break the law... if it is proportional. It isn't all about toilets.

See the MoJ case today!

There is a prohibitition under s13 of the Equality Act which makes all discrimination on grounds of Gender reassignment unlawful.

Well, aside from the fact that that definition of gender reassignment doesn't clearly include self id'ing trans people, not being allowed to discriminate on the grounds of gender reassignment' does not mean 'entitled to whichever single sex spaces they fancy'.

Of course Trans people are humans, and entitled to human rights.

I do feel trans people are being harmed, by this attitude of erroneously labeling people, based on gender stereotypes and "feelings". It almost feels like telling someone with anorexia, yes you are still too big, and yes you should keep starving yourself. I have other worries too, the high post surgery suicide rate, children being medicated or having surgery, before they've even lost their virginity/explored their sexuallity, etc.

So yes, I may be a terf, because I think transwomens rights should be a subsection of mens rights, but that doesn't mean I hate or can't feel empathy for trans people (or men in general).

@TransRightsRCool do you think gender identity should trump biology in matters of policy and law? In certain limited cases when it's the body that matters?

Are transgenderists still calling transsexuals scum?

Let's hope not.

Just to lighten the mood, a poster the other day was talking about her preferred adjectives . Not THAT I can certainly get behind.

I'll argue with anyone who doesn't think trans women are women

Come on then - on what objective basis are transwomen women? What is a woman?

That people are conflating the two.

Any forum that basically isn't mumsnet TransRightsRCool, the internet is your oyster.