Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

@gardenbird48

I have addressed the reason why rights for trans people, which have existed for 80 years (more than all of our lifetimes)

Which laws are you suggesting that predate the GRA 2004 and the EA 2010 and deal with rights for trans people?

It is an interesting thought that trans people have apparently had many more rights than gay people whose very existence was illegal and punishable by imprisonment until 1967.

Yes, trans people existed before 1967.

In fact, trans people did arguably have more rights than Gay people until the late 1960s.

You will have to look up the full history yourself.

There's a lawyer who's an expert, I'm sure they'll be able to explain.

@SilverBirchWithout

Personally I find it offensive when the argument is made that hormones determine sex. If ‘sex is on a spectrum’ does that make me somehow less female because I experienced early menopause. Do not erase me to justify your belief that taking hormones changes your biological sex.

Hormones define "Hormonal sex", I've said this over and over. But people seem so wedded to the idea there is a global property of "biological sex" that they don't see this distinction. Chromosomes define your chromosomal sex, primary and secondary sex characteristics define your physical sex. "Sex" is a set of characteristics, not one global property you have as a man or a woman (Ignoring enbys).

If we are talking about sex generally, then legal documents define your legal sex. Such as passport, birth certificate etc. Its not one thing, IMO!

@OvaHere

I have addressed the reason why rights for trans people, which have existed for 80 years (more than all of our lifetimes) and which have been working without any evidence of systematic issue for all that time, don't conflict with women's rights.

How about we address the court case that happened earlier today.

How can a policy that specifically caused 7 women (and that's just the women we know about) in the last few years to be raped/sexually assaulted by male people not be in conflict with the rights of women?

Without that specific policy from the MoJ that wouldn't have happened to those women.

How is that not a conflict?

It can only not be a conflict if women don't matter.

Just reposting in case you missed this @bigotryisbad

@PheasantPlucker1

oolOn there are thousands of differences between males and females.

Literally, thousands. Hormones are just one. We can talk about "hormonal sex", but also accept hormones do not define sex, in the same way none of the other many, many differences define sex.

Ultimatly, chromosomes define sex.

Does that make sense?

Yes, agreed. A transwoman is a biological male who may be taking synthetic cross sex female hormones. It does not change their biological reality or their sex. A transman is a biological female who may be taking synthetic cross sex male hormones. It does not change their biological reality or their sex. It does make sense - but sense seems to have taken a long walk off a short pier in this debate at every turn.

oolOn chromosomes define which gametes people produce.

No one without a Y chromsome can produce sperm.

Then pointed out that the case that had been posted was: 1. Effectively not binding on any other court. 2. Not addressing the relevant question. 3. Not actually relevant to what I'd said at all. I did this politely, so I understand how you didn't notice

I noticed, and responded politely explaining why you are wrong.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

1. I literally set out the exemption in full. Claiming that a part heard case in which the Equality Act seems unlikely to apply over-rules the statute law isn't a thing.

The Equality Act exemptions are statute law. You really don’t have a clue what you are talking about do you! Are a law student? The MOJ accepted that the EA does apply they admitted in court that prisons do fall under the Act. (The grounds of their concession is interesting and the judges have required a written statements to be submitted by next week).

The case is also looking at the interaction between the GRA and the EA and the single sex exemption may well override the provisions of the GRA in this case.

You're claiming that a case which hasn't even reached judgement and relates to risks posed by prisoners who have been convicted of a crime is relevant to people living their everyday lives.

I am not a law student but I don't have to be to know this isn't remotely true.

@PurpleHoodie

Oh dear.

Reading comprehension is not your forte.

I hate these sorts of posts.

Either disagree with the OP and make your point or don't. But this aren't I clever posting just makes you look nasty.

So you’re saying that effectively yes, my “hormonal sex” changed when I took medication that stopped me producing sex hormones. It made me less of a woman on one dimension of biological sex. Yes?

And can you see how that might be just a bit upsetting, and dare I say offensive, no?

Hormones define "Hormonal sex", I've said this over and over. But people seem so wedded to the idea there is a global property of "biological sex" that they don't see this distinction.

You seem completely unaware of the reason why we define sex as male or female.

If it was just a case of having varying hormones we wouldn’t bother, but then we would also have died out as a species or developed cloning technology.

@SilverBirchWithout

Who/what are ‘cis gatekeepers’. Are they people who identify as gates?

Gatekeepers are people who decide if a trans person gets medical treatment or not, people who decide if a trans person gets a GRC or not. Pretty much all cisgender and they decide this based on how well the trans person fits stereotypes of the gender/sex they are transitioning to.

I would think "gender critical" people would be as against this as trans people and allies are?

Hormones define "Hormonal sex", I've said this over and over. But people seem so wedded to the idea there is a global property of "biological sex" that they don't see this distinction. Chromosomes define your chromosomal sex, primary and secondary sex characteristics define your physical sex. "Sex" is a set of characteristics, not one global property you have as a man or a woman (Ignoring enbys).

If we are talking about sex generally, then legal documents define your legal sex. Such as passport, birth certificate etc. Its not one thing, IMO!

You've expended so many words on this thread OP purely in the service of justifying why XY male people with all the standard male physical characteristics going should be able to self identify into the category of female.

Because for all your concern about individuals with DSDs this is what it boils down to for you and other activists.

Women here say no. It's that simple for us.

Sounds like you've hit the nail on the head there. Gender is just nonsense.

@OvaHere

Hormones define "Hormonal sex", I've said this over and over. But people seem so wedded to the idea there is a global property of "biological sex" that they don't see this distinction. Chromosomes define your chromosomal sex, primary and secondary sex characteristics define your physical sex. "Sex" is a set of characteristics, not one global property you have as a man or a woman (Ignoring enbys).

If we are talking about sex generally, then legal documents define your legal sex. Such as passport, birth certificate etc. Its not one thing, IMO!

You've expended so many words on this thread OP purely in the service of justifying why XY male people with all the standard male physical characteristics going should be able to self identify into the category of female.

Because for all your concern about individuals with DSDs this is what it boils down to for you and other activists.

Women here say no. It's that simple for us.

Why are you calling people activists?

Also, is 'we say no' etc a sort of phrase? I've seen it used by many posters on these sorts of threads, and I'm always astounded by the arrogance that you speak for all women

You can have "small gametes" or gonads, and be a woman, born a woman, socialised as a woman.

Small gametes do make a person male though. Exactly how would a person producing small gametes be born a women using today’s modern medical technology to distinguish a person’s sex?

I have to say, before the thread fills up, that I admire your stamina oolOn and BigotryisBad You have stayed and kept on posting, in spite of a disappointing no show from the twitter troops, and that is to be commended. Civil discussion is always good, and it has been pretty civil.

But women of FWR, you are magnificent. It's been a useful thread.

My "hormonal sex" will, currently, consist, broadly speaking, oestrogen, progesterone and a little bit of testosterone on a monthly cycle. When pregnant, breastfeeding, pre-puberty, of course it would have been different

As I understand it, transwomen take the same dose of oestrogen every day.

So why are you saying they have a female hormone profile? Which females? What stage of life?

Hormones define "Hormonal sex", I've said this over and over. But people seem so wedded to the idea there is a global property of "biological sex" that they don't see this distinction. Chromosomes define your chromosomal sex, primary and secondary sex characteristics define your physical sex. "Sex" is a set of characteristics, not one global property you have as a man or a woman (Ignoring enbys).

This is just rubbish.

I also don't see what it has to do with people who believe they are really the opposite sex.

I am absolutely against telling transpeople they have to behave in a certain way to get a piece of paper that states a legal lie they are the sex they are not nor can ever be.

Seeing the current state we are in, it is better to separate the two concepts of sex and gender. Sex is recorded as it is relevant for a lot of things, like healthcare, government planning, the Equality Act, sports, etc. I really don't see the value of recording gender though, as it is fluid, changes in society, in people. But happy to be convinced otherwise.

Your genes control what sex you are. For most people it’s as simple as Xx or Xue chromosomes. For a small number there are extra chromosomes (or missing), for another small number genes swap onto a different chromosome. In all cases your genes put you on the path to produce sperm or eggs , not both, or a gamete that is halfway between. Whether your nosy gets to the end of the oath or stalls half way doesn’t stop you being on the path.

No amount of (must be taken every day for the rest of your life) additional (not replacement) hormones or cosmetic surgery can turn someone on the sperm producing pathway into someone on the egg producing pathway.

Fair comment @AbsintheFriends

Treatment for gender dysphoria is transition, gatekeeping that by forcing trans people to meet a cis psychologists idea of what a man or woman should look like or act isn't treatment. The GRA says they need to "live as a man/woman" for two years, cis gatekeepers decide what that means. They decide it based on sexist, outdated, stereotypes.

Please stop throwing the term cis about so indiscriminately. It’s offensive as many of us have said, also in the paragraph above it is meaningless, pointless, and not necessarily an accurate use of the word in this context.
You are throwing the word in to signal your distain, I would report the post but do not want to disrupt the debate.

BigotryisBad April Ashby wasnt divorced, the marriage was annuled.
Legally, it didnt happen.

I have never seen any evidence of Ashby changing their birth cert, do you have a decent link to that, or anything historical about trans history you could share it? I didnt know about birth cert changes, interested to read more now.

Thanks!

@Helmetbymidnight

against trans people's rights.

What trans rights have you decided that the people on MN are against?

The right to use the right toilet for them, for a start

The right to call themselves trans without mock or ridicule

The right to use medical intervention if that's what they want to do

The right to use certain pronouns

The right to change gender

Etc