Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

@AtSwimTwoBerts

So until overturned trans people do indeed have the right to use the spaces that match their acquired sex/gender

You can't acquire a new sex. HTH

Gender recognition certificate says otherwise

oo10n

You can believe the EA 2010 doesn't give trans people the right to use correctly sexed/gendered spaces. Fact is UK law works on precedent, and there is very little, but what we have is this. So until overturned trans people do indeed have the right to use the spaces that match their acquired sex/gender. And in practice every trans person I know has always used the correct spaces, for longer than I've been alive, and will continue to do so
www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

The Brook case did not create legal precedent as it was in a lower court. The Green case (covered with Brook below) did, and it found it was lawful to discriminate against a transwoman without a GRC wishing to be considered to be a female as the comparator for discrimination in these cases is someone of the same sex - a male. Meanwhile the Equality Act gives a number of examples of where the single sex clauses are lawful including a space where someone of one sex may reasonably object to the presence of a member of the opposite sex.

a-question-of-consent.net/2020/05/29/the-case-of-sb/

To many cis gender is offensive to others it’s not.
However if a large group of people are saying cis gender is offensive to them surely people should not be using it, particularly when trying to goad others.
Trans people ask other to respect their preferred names and pro-nouns and people do because that is kind, whatever they viewpoint in the debate on self-id. People who don’t are quite rightly pulled up when they get it wrong.
What is the difference in respecting people’s preferences on how they are labelled?
Calling me cis-gendered when I am (and identify as) a biological woman
is both unnecessary and offensive because I don’t identify as cis-gendered. My gender is not relevant or important to me, I’m not convinced there is anything about me, my behaviour or what I wear, which is particularly gender specific. Anybody could wear my clothes if they wanted to or do my hobbies. The only thing that possible defines my gender is how other people behave towards me, and that can sometimes be problematic and very annoying. To me my biology, physical characteristics, and personality define me not a vague gender-label.
Surely if trans people can request others to behave towards them in specific ways I can ask that too?
Gender is frankly quite boring and a bit pointless, and what I cannot ever get to grips with is why gender is so important to trans people - why if you feel restricted by a particular identity don’t you just dress and behave in the way you want and stop worry about labels and trying to control what others think about you. This will never lead to happiness or personal autonomy.
Most women learn this as they get older, be yourself and accept yourself.

Some people on here assert their entire identity as a man or woman is based on their bodies.

For some people on here, our bodies are just our realities, which we have to deal with for better or worse, and our sense of identity depends on other things, for example the things we value. While I couldn't claim to be one of the most honest people in the world, one part of my identity is how I deeply cherish my right to speak my truth. This is a right which, if extremest trans activists get their way, would be removed from me. Some of them would apparently like to rid the internet of any space where women can talk about the threat to our right to convene as females, our right to privacy and safety from males in the places where we and our children are vulnerable, our right to our own words.

By the way, I haven't tasted malt loaf in decades, it's a bit surreal how this thread is bringing back the memory of that chewy maltiness...

Gender recognition certificate says otherwise

Funny, logic would suggest a GENDER recognition certificate recognises GENDER. Not sex.
Are you telling us a gender recognition cert is not a gender recognition cert?
Biological sex can't be changed.

@BarbaraofKent

I'll argue with anyone who doesn't think trans women are women

Come on then - on what objective basis are transwomen women? What is a woman?

A person who is a woman.

"Gender recognition certificate says otherwise"

Actual genetics say otherwise

This thread is moving very fast - did I miss the scientific explanation of gender identity?

How is it possible to have a debate with someone who persistently refuses to have a debate by not answering questions? If you refuse to answers their questions then at least answer this -

What does I am a man" mean to you and why is that different to being a woman?

I see no good faith from the op.

Just in case anyone is still reading

Actually, this isn't the truth. It is an equal truth to what you are about to assert

There is a prohibitition under s13 of the Equality Act which makes all discrimination on grounds of Gender reassignment unlawful. as it does for ALL OF THE PROTECTED CHARACTERISTICS!

Claiming that the law doesn't protect the people that it was expressly designed to protect is an intrinsically transphobic position. And claiming that one section overrides any other is incorrect. Specifically as you are doing it again implies misogyny!

At the moment the competing characteristics have not been through the courts, which would mean a wholesale re-writing of the EA2010. As it is each case that comes up sets a precedent but does not overrride or change the EA2010.

Again, see the MoJ in the courts, today!

Gender recognition certificate says otherwise

A GRC is a legal fiction, it means that something appears on a birth certificate that is objectively false. Someone with a GRC hasn't 'changed sex'.

"A person who is a woman."

🤦‍♀️

@BarbaraofKent

What is a 'female gender identity'? Anyone???

Who knows. Maybe I’m a man, but I don’t realise it 🧐🤷‍♀️

@PheasantPlucker1

I dont think anyone should be banned for saying transwomen are women.

Its a belief, same as saying the earth is flat, or youre off to heaven when you die.

We all have every right to believe whatever we want, what we dont have is the right to force anyone else to go along with our beliefs.

What does confuse me is how we are the same.AFAIK...

Transwomen are male sex, female gender.
Ciswomen are female sex, female gender.
Women are female sex, no gender.

For those who say TWAW, can you explain what shared quality you think women and transwomen have?

You equated trans people's right to exist with religious belief with the inference that you could choose not to believe in trans people's existence.

This is transphobic.

A few weeks ago, an acquaintance in Australia was complaining that a decades-old food product had been renamed. The original name was a surname, but also an ethnic slur. My acquaintance (who is white), couldn’t see why the name needed to be changed, insisting that he didn’t find it offensive.

As someone else explained to him:

It doesn’t matter if you find the term offensive. What matters is whether the people described by the term find it offensive.

I used to use the term “cis”, OP. But once I realised that many people find this label offensive or inappropriate, I stopped using it.

A person who is a woman.

A woman is 'a person who is a woman'?

Wuh?

OK, what does the word 'woman' in the sentence 'a person who is a woman' mean?

And back to the man and woman on the street and the law courts.

The man and woman on the street being the most influential in one on one relationships overall.

Pray goodness take us back to simpler 80s times (without the homophobia)

Gender recognition certificate says otherwise Nope! It isn't called a 'legal fiction' for no reason!

@BarbaraofKent

A person who is a woman.

A woman is 'a person who is a woman'?

Wuh?

OK, what does the word 'woman' in the sentence 'a person who is a woman' mean?

I believe that's what we call circular logic.

You equated trans people's right to exist with religious belief with the inference that you could choose not to believe in trans people's existence.

Not believing that transwomen are women does not mean that you don't believe that transpeople exist? You just don't believe they are actually women.

That's like saying you don't believe that Christians exist because you personally don't believe in God

OP you're fighting a good fight on here but I fear you are unlikely to succeed in swaying those who have already made up their minds.

There are lots of people on mumsnet who have very strong opinions on this and I think feel quite threatened by the whole debate. Threads come up on the topic every day and anyone arguing the TWAW side will be in the minority here and gets swamped with counter-arguments.

I don't get involved in back and forths for that reason as it can feel like a bit of a pile on. But for anyone who is curious and open to at least hearing another opinion to the mumsnet norm, this article is interesting.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/10/trans-rights-feminist-letter-rebecca-solnit

@BaronessWrongCrowd

I also despise the use of Cis. I find it offensive. We have a word to describe us and that is women we don't need any further descriptive.

I did a diversity training course last week and questioned the use of the word cis saying I had only really seen it used in a quite negative way. The trainer said it was a totally valid, from -the- Latin term, so I am now confused about it

You equated trans people's right to exist with religious belief with the inference that you could choose not to believe in trans people's existence. Crikey! That is contorted!

Oh wow bigotry. Please tell me how you've come to the conclusion that I'm affronted at anti-transphobic posts? Or do you think I've been transphobic? Receipts please.

Thank you Rowan.